Killing and Being Killed conference papers

[Jim Webster]

Couple of points there I have to question, Jim.

Name three of these 'customers' In any event, Phoenician grain traditionally came from Phoenicia, or at a pinch Syria.  And why are budgets a problem for wealthy Persian nobles?

Please don't be deliberately petty.
Have you any evidence that Phoenician grain traditionally came from Phoenicia or Syria?

There is some evidence that they got some from Palestine, because Solomon signed over decent grain growing land to Tyre because it was desperately short. But as for buying grain from Syria, it would be cheaper to buy from Egypt because of transport.

Budgets are a problem for everybody. Wealthy Persian nobles had status to maintain, and having somebody a lot of them regarded as little more than a glorified first among equals (judging by the enthusiasm for dethroning them) screwing you over is going to go down badly

[Jim Webster]

Excuse me, but when did Xerxes ever buy wheat? He was the King of Kings.  The Empire and all within it were pretty much regarded as his personal property.

No it wasn't
People had obligations to him but they were limited.Hence we know that soldiers who were obliged to serve were still paid. Kings who systematically plunder their kingdoms don't last long

[Jim Webster]

Couple of points there I have to question, Jim.

Actually this was pretty much the definition of Biblical period kingship.  (By the time of the late Roman Republic it had degenerated into foot-stamping to make things happen, but the principle was the same.)  The actual storm following the flapping of the butterfly's wings would take a while to arrive, but if the King of Kings ordered something to happen, his empire bent its will and resources to making it happen, whether it be getting together supplies for 1.7 million fighting men or cutting a canal past Mount Athos.  If this meant diverting a lot of the Empire's shipping, then coastal cities would store extra to cover the period for which the diverted shipping was expected to be unavailable.

The essential point at issue here seems to be: were Xerxes' logistical arrangements comparable to those of mediaeval Catalans?  The answer has to be: no, not in the slightest.

Actually the definition of bible kingship was a lot different from what you imagine. The story of David, Bathsheba and the prophet Nathan is important because it sets down that Kings ARE bound by the law.

As for your  coastal cities "storing extra to cover the period", we're in classic handwavium territory 
So the Great king decides he needs three years grain for his army. So six years before that he tells the cities to store grain for three years to carry them through, and then he stockpiles grain for the army.
And at this point the cities are struggling because they're eating grain which is coming out of store after 4 years and is infested and rotten
I suggest you look at http://storedgrain.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Peter_Types-of-storage-options-explained.pdf

https://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq7402

https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/grain-handling-and-equipment/grain-bins/8-tips-f-longterm-grain-stage_214-ar45622

as a basic guide to storing wheat, just to give you a feel for the issues.

[Erpingham]

If we are to rerun the discussion of the logistics of the Persian invasion of Greece, perhaps we should do so under a more appropriate title?  That way, it would be more likely to be spotted by interested parties. 

[Jim Webster]

If we are to rerun the discussion of the logistics of the Persian invasion of Greece, perhaps we should do so under a more appropriate title?  That way, it would be more likely to be spotted by interested parties.

fear not, I'm not going to go down that road. This is more a general logistics thread. The problems of storing grain when you couldn't guarantee low temperatures, couldn't fumigate for vermin (some did mix it with sand for storage but that isn't much good unless you can keep it dry as well and doesn't work for molds) need to be faced up to. A grain stock pile is something you draw from constantly, using the oldest first and adding to, it's not something you put in a building, lock the door and leave for three or four years

[Justin Swanton]

I'd be seriously interested in a separate thread on the problems involved in logistical preparations for an army that one posits will be over a million men strong. It would be well worthwhile collecting all the arguments for and against in the same place. Let me start it.