Chariots at Qadesh...

[Keith]

... or Kadesh if you prefer. Regarding the chariots at this battle, there seems little doubt that the Egyptian ones were classic light chariots, with 2 crew, wheels at the rear and bows as the main weapon. For the Hittites, 3 man heavy (or at least heavier) chariots with central axles, but was the primary weapon of the Hittite chariots spear or bow? I have read accounts which determinedly support either option.

There is also the issue of Hittite allies - would I be right in surmising that a significant part of the Hittite chariot force at this battle would be allied, and that these allied chariots were more likely to be the light, Egyptian type?

Would also love to hear views on the Osprey title on Qadesh, written by Mark Healy.

Thanks in advance.

[aligern]

Keith, you need to get hold of Slingshot articles by Ian Russell Lowell . If you have the Zslingshot disk then that would be a good start point. Ian is the most autoritative  on Hittites. ( IMHO) I recall his conclusion on Hittites was that they used two man chariots, with one man a driver/ archer and the other a shield bearer and that chariots carrying three men are porting an infantryman who would dismount in order to attack and hold the Egyptian camp.

I don't think Ian totally ruled out the possibility of three men in the cab, but that Zi felt was only him being kind to those of us who already had armies with overloaded , underbowed Hittite cabs.
Roy

[Keith]

Thanks Roy. But hang on... "driver/archer"? Now that's what I call multi-tasking!

[aligern]

I too was astonished when Ian showed which figure had the reins wrapped around his waist.
I know its counter intuitive, but it suggested a quite different relationship between the shield bearer and the bowman . Thinking about it, how easy would it be to drive the chariot and simultaneously dodge around with a shield?
Roy

[Mark G]

Perhaps a bit easier than aiming a bow while being irregularly tugged forward at the waist while jostled up and down and side to side from the feet.

[Andreas Johansson]

Ramses himself is depicted alone in a chariot, reins to his waist and shooting a bow. Perhaps this heroic image was applied also to line chariots by artists who weren't charioteering experts?

I find it difficult to believe having a 2nd man in the vehicle was worthwhile if his only job was holding a (smallish, judging from the reliefs) shield, esp. as the archer is likely to be heavily armoured.

[Keith]

At the moment I'm sticking with 3 crew because I love the Angus McBride illustration and 3 crew makes a better wargaming story.

But one of those McBride guys should have a bow. Definitely.

[Patrick Waterson]

I would encourage three crew, Keith, if only on the assumption that Egyptians who were there would know their enemy and their observations would be a mite more accurate than someone's theories 22 centuries later.

The question of a bow is an interesting one.  Assyrian chariots usually had a driver, archer and one or more shieldsmen, so one might expect the Kadesh attendees to work on similar principles.  However we know of the Assyrian chariot crew's composition because of their depiction on period reliefs, which is exactly the criterion for not giving a bow to the solely javelin-armed crews on Ramses' reliefs, particularly as some other contingents are depicted as having bows.

[Flaminpig0]

Perhaps a bit easier than aiming a bow while being irregularly tugged forward at the waist while jostled up and down and side to side from the feet.

Perhaps at least some of the time they shot from what modern tank crew call the 'short halt'.