Elephants, camels and disorganisation!

[Jim Webster]

In a lot of wargames rules elephants and camels both had an adverse effect on some cavalry, call it disorganisation or whatever.
But does anybody have any idea whether elephants are disorganised by camels or vice versa!

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

In Semiramis' invasion of India (Diodorus II.17-19) the lady in question makes numerous dummy elephants each containing, and moved by, a man with a camel.  However although these put the Indian cavalry and chariotry smartly to flight, they do not appear to have had a disorganising effect on the Indian elephants.

The Indian chariotry and cavalry had been disorganised when "the odour which reached the horses was unfamiliar, and then the other differences, which taken all together were very great, threw them into utter confusion," but the Indian elephants were untroubled by any of this.

"Then Semiramis, who was in the battle with a select band of soldiers, made skilful use of her advantage and put the Indian [mounted troops] to flight. But although these fled towards the battle-line, King Stabrobates, undismayed, advanced the ranks of his foot-soldiers, keeping the elephants in front, while he himself, taking his position on the right wing and fighting from the most powerful of the beasts, charged in terrifying fashion upon the queen, whom chance had placed opposite him. And since the rest of the elephants followed his example, the army of Semiramis withstood but a short time the attack of the beasts; for the animals, by virtue of their extraordinary courage and the confidence which they felt in their power, easily destroyed everyone who tried to withstand them." - Diodorus II.19.4-5

This is the only example that occurs to me.  Anyone else?

[Jim Webster]

Semiramis' invasion was the only one that occurred to me as well to be honest and other than apparent elephants that smelled of camel disorganising Indian horses who expected their elephants to smell of elephants, there appears to be no other effects. Certainly the text doesn't hint that Indian elephants were at all put out by camels disguised as elephants.

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

There does seem to have been one occasion when camels were used to disorganise elephants, although it belongs in the flaming pig category:

"In 1398 Timur's army faced more than one hundred Indian elephants in battle and almost lost because of the fear they caused amongst his troops. Historical accounts say that the Timurids ultimately won by employing an ingenious strategy: Timur tied flaming straw to the back of his camels before the charge. The smoke made the camels run forward, scaring the elephants, who crushed their own troops in their efforts to retreat." - Wikipedia War Elephant entry

[Chris]

Interesting . . .

The apparent lack of evidence, suggests that occasions wherein elephants faced off against camels or camels faced off against elephants were few and far between.

Refighting historical battles then, may not pose much of a problem. It is the scenario or one-off contests that might  prove a challenge.

Worth a play test or two, or three?

Perhaps there is a Slingshot piece in here somewhere?

Chris

[evilgong]

IIRC one of the WRG sets had elephants disorder camels -  I wonder where that came from?

[Duncan Head]

There does seem to have been one occasion when camels were used to disorganise elephants, although it belongs in the flaming pig category:

"In 1398 Timur's army faced more than one hundred Indian elephants in battle and almost lost because of the fear they caused amongst his troops. Historical accounts say that the Timurids ultimately won by employing an ingenious strategy: Timur tied flaming straw to the back of his camels before the charge. The smoke made the camels run forward, scaring the elephants, who crushed their own troops in their efforts to retreat." - Wikipedia War Elephant entry

See here for the sources, of course.

The Arab camels disguised as elephants at Qadisiyyah seem to have been used to frighten Persian horses, I'm not sure if there is a description of their effect on the elephants.