The Republican army’s skirmish position

[Justin Swanton]

My own problem with the diagrams is of course the chequerboard style gaps and the scattered groupings of the skirmishers. The tacticians devote whole sections to skirmisher foot and their formations were always as structured as those of heavy infantry. Tidy files with fewer men per file than the heavies.

Which leads to one question: what evidence do we have that any formations, mounted or foot, were just loose groupings that moved around helter-skelter? Were even LC like that?

[nikgaukroger]

IIRC one (or more) of the Roman/Byzantine manuals refers to cavalry operating in "unformed" groups on the flanks of the army.

[Erpingham]

IIRC one (or more) of the Roman/Byzantine manuals refers to cavalry operating in "unformed" groups on the flanks of the army.

This would be the drungus, also known to Vegetius.  Covered by this paper by Rance.

[Imperial Dave]

My own problem with the diagrams is of course the chequerboard style gaps and the scattered groupings of the skirmishers. The tacticians devote whole sections to skirmisher foot and their formations were always as structured as those of heavy infantry. Tidy files with fewer men per file than the heavies.

Which leads to one question: what evidence do we have than any formations, mounted or foot, were just loose groupings that moved around helter-skelter? Were even LC like that?

a good point Justin and one I have pondered myself

[Erpingham]

Doesn't Polybius give us a description of velite activity which distinguishes them from those who fought in closed formations?  That they wore animal headresses to stand out when observed by officers and were given prizes if they killed enemies in single combat?  Anyone know the references?

[aligern]

Twenty metres  quite sufficient  for the skirmishers to flee. Wargamers have this idea  that opponents can dash out of formations and catch skirmishers, but it is inherently unlikely to wirk
Firstly no man  dashes out on his own...unless he is a Galatian who has  been tormented  for some time by slings, javelins and arrows that he cannot reply too.  If he goes on his own he is immediately the focus of several skirmishers , including some on his unshielded side, and goes down.
Secondly Men who are going to run forward together need to be commanded and organised. If, lije the Spartans you send say the men in rank five out then the ranks have to be opened up and the designated troops move up to the front , from there to move off at a  run . Are the skirmishers not going to notice this and guess what is coming and they do not need to be ordered back, they just run into the space,
Third the charging infantry stand a very good chance of arriving in front of the line troops backing the fleeing  skirmishers disordered and blown, the very state Pompey was trying to induce in the Caesarian legionaries at Pharsalus..

When lines if troops are close up against each both  time and distance work differently from the normal rate. I think its Ardant du Picq who describes how in a column the mass of men shudders as it takes fire. There is a mass psychology, the crowd, sharing a common and restraining fear, the officers working against that fear to keep them moving. In an ancient context the men will huddle to get the maximum protection from  neighbouring shields. Unless its a prearranged drill or desperation I cannot see  line troops just breaking formation and running at the skirmishers.

Isn't there a country and Western song.'.Gimme three steps , gimme just three steps'?  20 metres is thirty steps!
Roy

[Erpingham]

Just to avoid talking at cross purposes, the velites are at 20m distance, not the battlelines.  Anyone dashing out from the main line would have to run through his own skirmishers, which seems unlikely.  I am less sure that skirmishers would not run at one another, or that they were in close order formations.  The Polybius quotes I await, referenced by folks like Lendon, suggest they did sometimes mix it.

Overall, I sometimes thought that ancient skirmishers are, in wargamers eyes, based on Napoleonic skirmishers in different uniforms, rather than real evidence of ancient behaviour.  I do have a bit of a question of how skirmishing took place if the manuals tell us it was all done in deep close order blocks though.

[Imperial Dave]

I wonder if the skirmisher screen is actually part of the main battleline that just pelts forward at a predetermined distance or signal to lob javelins etc with greater freedom and accuracy before scarpering to the back through these gaps

[aligern]

I suppose  that mostly the skirmishers are dealing with other skirmishers. Mutually they are preventing the other side targeting their mine line of battle. Only if the enemy is deficient in skirmisher numbers is a main battle line going to be taking missile casualties.
Roy

[RichT]

There isn't a single passage (to my knowledge) that clear describes what velites do. Their equipment is in:

Polybius 6.22
"The youngest soldiers or velites are ordered to carry a sword, javelins, and a target (parma). The target is strongly made and sufficiently large to afford protection, being circular and measuring three feet in diameter. They also wear a plain helmet, and sometimes cover it with a wolf's skin or something similar both to protect and to act as a distinguishing mark by which their officers can recognize them and judge if they fight pluckily or not. The wooden shaft of the javelin measures about two cubits in length and is about a finger's breadth in thickness; its head is a span long hammered out to such a fine edge that it is necessarily bent by the first impact, and the enemy is unable to return it. If this were not so, the missile would be available for both sides."

And their method of fighting in lots of places, such as this:

Polybius 2.30
"But when the javelineers advanced, as is their usage, from the ranks of the Roman legions and began to hurl their javelins in well-aimed volleys, the Celts in the rear ranks indeed were well protected by their trousers and cloaks, but it fell out far otherwise than they had expected with the naked men in front, and they found themselves in a very difficult and helpless predicament. For the Gaulish shield does not cover the whole body; so that their nakedness was a disadvantage, and the bigger they were the better chance had the missiles of going home. At length, unable to drive off the javelineers owing to the distance and the hail of javelins, and reduced to the utmost distress and perplexity, some of them, in their impotent rage, rushed wildly on the enemy and sacrificed their lives, while others, retreating step by step on the ranks of their comrades, threw them into disorder by their display of faint-heartedness. Thus was the spirit of the Gaesatae broken down by the javelineers; but the main body of the Insubres, Boii, and Taurisci, once the javelineers had withdrawn into the ranks and the Roman maniples attacked them, met the enemy and kept up a stubborn hand-to-hand combat."

Both familiar passages...

There isn't any single source that absolutely clearly spells out how skirmishers skirmish, AFAIK, but the assumptions (looser order, individual action) seem reasonable to me, in light of descriptions like above.

The Hellenistic tacticians are describing something quite specific (Hellenistic armies) and while I'm a big fan of their reliability and usefulness, applying their description to Roman velites is like taking a drill manual for Marlborough's army and insisting that it accurately describes how Americans fought in the AWI.

[Erpingham]

Lendon references this passage in relation to velites

After a battle in which some of them have distinguished themselves, the general calls an assembly of the troops, and bringing forward those whom he considers to have displayed conspicuous valour, first of all speaks in laudatory terms of the courageous deeds of each and of anything else in their previous conduct which deserves commendation, and afterwards distributes the following rewards. 3 To the man who has wounded an enemy, a spear; to him who has slain and stripped an enemy, a cup if he be in the infantry and horse trappings if in the cavalry, although the gift here was originally only a spear. 4 These gifts are not made to men who have wounded or stripped an enemy in a regular battle or at the storming of a city, but to those who during skirmishes or in similar circumstances, where there is no necessity for engaging in single combat, have voluntarily and deliberately thrown themselves into the danger. Polybius 6, 39

He relates it to the animal skin headgear by which the velites tried to attract the attention of senior officers.  I'm not sure though how much "skirmishing" relates to the phase of battle before the main clash and how much to less formal small scale combat.

[Imperial Dave]

I suppose  that mostly the skirmishers are dealing with other skirmishers. Mutually they are preventing the other side targeting their mine line of battle. Only if the enemy is deficient in skirmisher numbers is a main battle line going to be taking missile casualties.
Roy

agreed. Cant remember where I read of one account but didnt greek army psiloi start off as the fittest and youngest of the hoplites that helped to chase off enemy skirmishers - possibly Anabasis but cant be sure

[Mark G]

Let us not overlook the age of the velites.