Maniple standards in Polybian Armies.

[Some call me Tim]

Can some one help me with a question I've had for a while.

I have read in several texts that the standard for a maniple, at least initially, was literally a handful of straw tied to a pole /shaft. Had this practice died out by the (2nd) Punic War? Is so, did the maniple have a standard? Or was it at century level? And what was it?

Regards,

Robert

[Patrick Waterson]

Livy VIII.8 gives each maniple a standard-bearer (in 340 BC) so we can safely assume that each maniple still had a standard as of that date.

Polybius VI.23 (writing in the 2nd century BC) gives each maniple two 'signiferi', standard-bearers, so in the 'Polybian' (Punic Wars) legion we can conclude that each century had a standard, the maniple having two.

Exactly what the manipular standard was I do not know.  Sorry.  One can surmise that it was of more permanent form than the original straw bundle, as it had to last through the rigours of an extended campaign.

Patrick

[Swampster]

Pliny (X.5) says that before Marius the 'ordos' carried the five various standards - eagle, wolf, minotaur, horse, boar. Whether he is using ordo in a strict sense of those units containing the triarii or a broader sense to include the centuries or maniples of the others is debateable.

P.

[Duncan Head]

I have read in several texts that the standard for a maniple, at least initially, was literally a handful of straw tied to a pole /shaft. Had this practice died out by the (2nd) Punic War? Is so, did the maniple have a standard? Or was it at century level? And what was it?

The (or at least, an) original source for the handful of straw is Ovid, Fasti III.118. We don't really know if the "handful of straw" was ever real, or was just some sort of folk-etymology around manipulus.

As Patrick says, Polybios Book VI says two standard-bearers to a maniple, which would equate to one per century though that is not how he phrases it. There are what appear to be maniple-standards - marked H and P for Hastati and Principes - on a number of first-century Roman coins, such as http://tinyurl.com/aco5kjh; but we don't know if they were used as early as the Punic Wars. (Note that Nick Sekunda uses them in his Osprey reconstruction of "Polybian" standard-bearers).

[Some call me Tim]

Many thanks for the replies!

This is the kind of thing that made me join the Society - friendly, knowledgable people who are happy to help. I think I'll stay in the SoA for the rest of my life.

Anyway, while there is no real answer, I got what I wanted. I have a couple of different standard bearing figures in my Polybian Roman DBA army. Now I have some form of justification for thm lol.

Thanks again!

Regards,

Rob Grierson