Walrus shortages

[Duncan Head]

... may have contributed to the fall of the Norse settlements in Greenland:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/06/walrus-shortage-may-have-caused-collapse-of-norse-greenland

[Imperial Dave]

Love the title as it conjured up something Pythonesque in my head but on reading is a very interesting take on the collapse of the Norse-Greenlandic society

[Jim Webster]

Love the title as it conjured up something Pythonesque in my head but on reading is a very interesting take on the collapse of the Norse-Greenlandic society

The problem with a society like Norse-Greenland is that it was so marginal that comparatively small changes could lead to the abandonment of the area

[aligern]

A recent programme that referred  to the settlements  suggested that the Norse could have survived very well if they had adopted the sea based lifestyle of the local Inuit, but they doomed themselves by attempting to maintain a European temperate zone mode of life based upon wheat farming.Despite tge Inuit being near them tge Norse failed to learn from them. I think it was suggested that as things got tougher the Norse became more religious as they tried to stop the effects of worsening climate through prayer rather than adaptation.

Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

I have seen that suggestion, implying that in essence the settlement died of Christianity as much as through a changing environment.  A tendency to cling to a belief system rather than adapt behaviour to circumstances may also have been instrumental in the loss of England's Roanoke Island colony, which was similarly isolated from its parent culture.

[Jim Webster]

I have seen that suggestion, implying that in essence the settlement died of Christianity as much as through a changing environment.  A tendency to cling to a belief system rather than adapt behaviour to circumstances may also have been instrumental in the loss of England's Roanoke Island colony, which was similarly isolated from its parent culture.

Actually it's common enough for expats to cling to their remembered version of 'home' and 'culture' rather than adapt to the world they find themselves in.

[Patrick Waterson]

Actually it's common enough for expats to cling to their remembered version of 'home' and 'culture' rather than adapt to the world they find themselves in.

Very true - although the consequences are usually less terminal.

[aligern]

Religion can have a very positive impact on such things as group cohesion and on maintaining the rhythm of life.  Its problems occur because , in a critical situation there is a tendency to do more religion until it becomes counter productive. Rather as the Maya upped the sacrifice rate when times got tough, rather than migrating. Weren't the Carthaginians guilty of sacrificing more babies in times of stress?
Roy

[Jim Webster]

Religion can have a very positive impact on such things as group cohesion and on maintaining the rhythm of life.  Its problems occur because , in a critical situation there is a tendency to do more religion until it becomes counter productive. Rather as the Maya upped the sacrifice rate when times got tough, rather than migrating. Weren't the Carthaginians guilty of sacrificing more babies in times of stress?
Roy

even the Romans took to burying people alive in the forum under those circumstances. Perhaps they assumed it was a success?

It's an interesting area. One question that has to be asked, could the Greenlanders have left?

One interesting article
https://icelandmag.is/article/what-happened-viking-settlement-greenland-new-research-shows-cooling-weather-not-a-factor

points out there are a shortage of young women in the graves towards the end. It may be that those who could just left

[Patrick Waterson]

That article is intriguing, Jim, because it pretty much invalidates the premises previously assumed: it argues no climate change (or not enough to matter), posits adaptation of diet as opposed to starvation, and identifies emigration rather than annihilation being the fundamental cause of the failure of the settlement.

I suppose the next question would be: if the young did indeed leave, would they have left out of boredom or because they had run out of walruses?

[Jim Webster]

That article is intriguing, Jim, because it pretty much invalidates the premises previously assumed: it argues no climate change (or not enough to matter), posits adaptation of diet as opposed to starvation, and identifies emigration rather than annihilation being the fundamental cause of the failure of the settlement.

I suppose the next question would be: if the young did indeed leave, would they have left out of boredom or because they had run out of walruses?

From watching agriculture in my own lifetime, we see people leaving when, frankly, the job is no longer worth the candle. People accept long hours and poor working conditions when they feel they're enjoying it and are making enough money to take some time off or put some aside for pensions etc.
I can imagine that in Greenland as the population shrunk, the pool of potential partners also shrunk and when they ended up with failing economic prospects as well because of the decline in the Walrus ivory market, anybody with any get up and go would just have left

[Nick Harbud]

Actually it's common enough for expats to cling to their remembered version of 'home' and 'culture' rather than adapt to the world they find themselves in.

What complete balderdash!!!  Even before the modern-day, 24/7 connectivity, there was never any problem in keeping touch with what was going on at home.  Most expats have a lively social life and any misconceptions in this area are the obvious effect of too little alcohol.

Of course, it is necessary at all times to show a degree of sang-froid in the face of local disturbances.   

[Mick Hession]

Although emigrants themselves tend to keep in touch I find their descendants (grandchildren and later) are the ones to have rather curious views about their ancestral homelands.

That may just be an Irish thing though, not helped by the tourism board of old pretending The Quiet Man was a documentary 

Cheers
Mick

[Jim Webster]

Actually it's common enough for expats to cling to their remembered version of 'home' and 'culture' rather than adapt to the world they find themselves in.

What complete balderdash!!!  Even before the modern-day, 24/7 connectivity, there was never any problem in keeping touch with what was going on at home.  Most expats have a lively social life and any misconceptions in this area are the obvious effect of too little alcohol.

Of course, it is necessary at all times to show a degree of sang-froid in the face of local disturbances.   

depends on the period, it could take from four to six months to get a message to India in 1800 and as long to get a reply back.
Wars broke out or finished and the time lag could cause local embarrassments