Walls and Withdrawals: Gildas’ Version of the End of Roman Britain

[Imperial Dave]

very true and as the article suggests there was possibly an pre-established east/west divide as the partial reoccupation by Roman forces occurred mainly in the SE

[Jim Webster]

very true and as the article suggests there was possibly an pre-established east/west divide as the partial reoccupation by Roman forces occurred mainly in the SE

For the purpose of the discussion, let's assume that it happened. I'm not sure whether 'occupation' is the right way to describe it.
I would suggest that there wasn't enough troops involved to 'reconquer' the island, and in all probability a small force came across at the invitation of those in charge on the island who still thought of themselves as part of the Empire
It could be as simple a thing as setting things up so the 'Saxon Shore' command worked properly across both sides of the channel and perhaps bringing local units back up to strength or at least bringing them up to the mark with regards efficiency

[aligern]

I'd see it as rather like Gaul in 452. In some ways  it was all Roman, settled barbarians still accepted that they were on imperial territory, just that they did what tgey wanted there. Landowning was regulated by imperial treaties and imperial kaw. The Burgundian's right to land was either a grant of hospitalitas from the empire or purchase from  Roman citizen or the takeover of deserted land in a way the empire recognised. As said earlier, you were king of tge Burgundians or Goths, not  if a defined territory.  Tge Franks held their land under a foedus with the empire. They turned up under their kings at Aetius' summons. In Britain the variously settled frontier tribes held land for service in the same way.  There were at least some soldiers in the Northern forts  ( as there were in Gaul as Limitanei answer Aetius' call) , there were German foederati in strategic locations too. However, what was lacking was a military commander or governor across all the island . When the Britons ask for help it sounds most like the elites who run the civitates who petition. Tax collection has very likely broken down and anything much beyond local supply arrangements' too. If there is a mobile force in York which stimulates the Angles to repeated dike building then it is most lijely fed from local resources.  When a Roman arrives to help he does not deal with one strongman, but the heads of many tiny city states.
Roy

[Anton]

The thing about land that really interests me is the imperial Estates.  These were huge and lucrative and while we don't know where they were Britain certainly had some.  There was also a lot of land belonging to the military.  Post the fall of Constantine most of these British resources were presumably up for grabs.  If you wanted to settle federates without dispossessing the locals and potentially upsetting your power base these were the resources to use.

Rance thinks that was what happened in Dyfed and Koch thinks that's what Vortigern's dynasty did when granting extensive lands to the church.

[Imperial Dave]

makes complete sense. Its a win win. You can donate land from the former imperial estates to foederati and the church to secure service. If Imperial control ever does reoccur then the Emperor would either validate this arrangement or reacquire what he thought he could do 

[Jim Webster]

makes complete sense. Its a win win. You can donate land from the former imperial estates to foederati and the church to secure service. If Imperial control ever does reoccur then the Emperor would either validate this arrangement or reacquire what he thought he could do

Exactly, if the Emperor returns with enough power for his opinion to matter, than it's his problem, not yours 

[Anton]

On the east-west situation in Britannia has anyone else read Greene on the situation in what became Lyndsey.  I have a copy but it's years since I read it.  From memory the thesis is that the British polity there falls in the 6th century and the remaining British military elite heading north, for Bryneich maybe?

On Roy's point more than one scholar has thought that there was a big and scary  British polity north of the Humber.  the south of the Old North I suppose.  Perhaps comprising of Rheged, Deira and Bryneich.

[Imperial Dave]

On the east-west situation in Britannia has anyone else read Greene on the situation in what became Lyndsey.  I have a copy but it's years since I read it.  From memory the thesis is that the British polity there falls in the 6th century and the remaining British military elite heading north, for Bryneich maybe?

On Roy's point more than one scholar has thought that there was a big and scary  British polity north of the Humber.  the south of the Old North I suppose.  Perhaps comprising of Rheged, Deira and Bryneich.

I've read a few of her articles but not the book. She goes into quite a bit of detail and makes some good points re the British polity there and its fall.

Re the second point.....Men of the North is a term that still resonates. One wonders if when the garrisons were reduced in the Highland areas of North and Western Britain that the change to an Heroic society was accelerated even happening towards the end of the 4th Century. This is perhaps why we see an East/West and North/South divide develop. The West and North create a largely martial society to protect themselves from raiders. The South and East still have links to the continent and if/when the postulated Roman forces come back in the 1st quarter of the 5th Century, they dont go beyond the confines of the lowlands because of this. In effect, the West and North are much like the situations in the rest of the Western Empire. Nominal Imperial Authority in semi-autonomous areas   

[Anton]

If they ever did come back of course. I've been meaning to have a proper look at the Notitia.

Yes, it continues to resonate today.  Amazing really. 

If Marwanad Cunedda is anything to go by then the change was in place as you indicate.  The question is who was running the show?  There's obviously an authority way above Cunedda's level that owns the treaty his bard is so anxious to promote.  That authority transcends the Wall.  Breaking the treaty 'will make the civates quake'.  There's a fair bit of real politic in it.

There are no demands for blood vengeance in the poem just an appeal to keep the treaty and provide the bard with his new suit once a successor takes over.  It's almost as though Cunedda's death is just the cost of doing business.  Sort of 'He was a great lad altogether but you know how it goes'. It implies Cunedda was killed by a similar outfit.  I keep rereading Koch's treatment of it there is an awful lot in it.

[Imperial Dave]

there is an awful lot in it and you can see the beginnings of the situation that developed into Rheged and Gododdin and thus Catraeth further down the line