The Crusades

[pegg98765]

Hi
My daughter bought me come Crusaders for my birthday (good girl).  Unfortunately I know nothing about the period and would be grateful for any help that the group could give.
I'm thinking 1st-3rd crusades.  I'm not too bad on the European armies but I'm totally ignorant about their Muslim enemies.
I'm also thinking of the Normans in Sicily on the same principal.
Where should I begin?
I've ordered Terry Wise's Armies of The Crusades and The Armies of Islam, 7th-11th Centuries both by Osprey.
Any other suggestion, lists etc?
Thanks,
Gordon

[Duncan Head]

Armies of The Crusades isn't all that good, and The Armies of Islam, 7th-11th Centuries is the very first of David Nicolle's many Ospreys so it's a bit more superficial than his later works, as well as not really covering the Crusades era. You'd be better off with his Saladin and the Saracens, The Crusades, The Mamluks, or any of the Campaign titles on the individual Crusades.

I used to point people at Ian Heath's Armies and Enemies of the Crusades, 1096-1291 (WRG) and A Wargamers' Guide to the Crusades (PSL) but they're both ageing and out of print now - you can pick up copies of the PSL book cheapish but the WRG one is in more demand.

Steven Runciman's three-volume A History of the Crusades is still well worth reading, but there are loads of more recent general histories. P M Holt, The Age of the Crusades: Near East from the Eleventh Century to 1517 (in the Longmans A History of the Near East series) is good, but not just about the Crusades. And you should really try to get R C Smail, Crusading Warfare 1097-1193 and Christopher Marshall's "sequel" Warfare in the Latin East, 1192-1291.

As for lists, that sort of depends what rules you're thinking of using - most sets have got them.

PS: Happy birthday!

[pegg98765]

Thank you for that.  Really helpful.

Try not to laugh at this if it is  really silly  but would it be possible to make up an army of Muslims which could be used in Spain and Sicily as well as representing Saladin's troops.  Obviously some specialist troops would be required for each era but would there be some overlap? In 15mm?

Gordon

[aligern]

It all depends upon how purist you want to be. If you really want troops for Saladin's army then they won't fit easily in Spain. However, on the positive side most opponents are not that perceptive about sartorial difference between Arab and Middle Eastern armies and across the century between the First Crusade and Saladin.
The troops you could get away with for Egypt, Syria, Sicily and Spain would be:
Arab foot. The sort of guys  in Essex Crusade range that have round shields and spears
Arab  bows.
Negro spears and bows, though less likely in Spain, likely in Egypt and Sicily
Arab cavalry with lance.
Bedouin cavalry or other Arab light cavalry. These can double as Berbers in sicily and Spain and Bedouin in the Egyptian army.
Arab like horse archers a few in the Spanish Muslim forces and Sicily.
Arab javelin skirmishers
Pretty well all the above are suitable for the Fatimid army that fought against the Crusader states.

Turkish horse archers
Turkish lance and bow cavalry.

The latter two types are really only for the army of Saladin and the Seljuk Turkish states that fight the first and second Crusades.

Really there are two sets of armies here that overlap. The Spanish Moslem, Sicilian Aghlabid and successor and Fatimid armies can all be reasonably represented by the first part of the list , it will provide infantry and allied Arab cavalry for the second part of the list, the Seljuks and Saladin's Egyptian state.
Roy

[Mark]

In 28mm for the crusader period Arabs there are 3 ranges I would recommend - Perry, Gripping Beast and Musketeer (which could be used for earlier). The latter are actually both sold by Gripping Beast and as such get you an SoA discount. GB also sell a Spanish range. Similarly both Perry and GB do first crusade ranges. 3rd crusade is incredibly difficult to find in 28mm, for some reason.

Essex have 28mm models for the period also, but when I've tried to raise the issue of joining our discount program with them, they've just given me a good ignoring, so I classify them in the unhelpful group, along with Foundry.

Books, in addition to Duncan's list
- Steven Runciman = excellent read
- Recent books by Thomas Asbridger and Christopher Tyerman
- I enjoyed, Peter Frankopan - The First Crusade, Call from the East - nice Runciman-style writing, emphasis on Byzantine angle, although he does behave as if nobody else had noticed it.
- Norwich - the Normans in Sicily (and actually Norwich's Byzantine Trilogy, but you'll change your interests on the basis of that one)
- Western Warfare in the Age of the Crusades - John France
- Moslem history (Spain and Caliphates) - Hugh Kennedy's stuff. Also Richard Fletcher - Moorish Spain

If you want an ongoing source of pictures and essays about medieval warfare, cheaper than Osprey but not as "selectable" - look at a sub to Medieval Warfare - once again there's a Society discount.

[Andreas Johansson]

- Western Warfare in the Age of the Crusades - John France

France has also written a couple books more directly about crusading: Victory in the East: A Military History of the First Crusade and The Crusades and the Expansion of Catholic Christendom, 1000-1714. I haven't read them, but if they're anywhere as good as Western Warfare they're well worth reading.

[Duncan Head]

Roy's on the right lines about the overlap of figure, I think. In 15mm, I don't know what make your existing Crusaders are, but there are plenty of ranges out there, depending on what styles you prefer. Essex and Minifigs probably do the largest ranges, but neither are to everyone's taste. Khurasan do Arab and First Crusade ranges; Outpost do First Crusade, Later Crusades, Byzantines and Islamics and are one of the most historically accurate ranges. Mirliton (Vexillia in the UK) have some attractive Muslim figures and Legio Heroica do both Crusaders and Muslims - I haven't seen these live but in the photos they are probably my favourites.

Some handy notes on flags and colours at http://users.actrix.co.nz/moyle/figs/standard.html, for Crusaders at http://earlyblazon.com/,  and for Andalusian Muslims at http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/reconquista/painting-muslims.htm.

[pegg98765]

Hi
Thank you all once again for all the information: especially to Roy for the detailed help on overlap between the armies.
I'm not that fussy. I play most games solo and all my real life opponants are not "proper" wargamers and would find it difficult to distinguish between a Mamaluk and a Templar let alone a Bedouin and an Egyptian.

The figures my daughter bought are Essex 1100-1250 knights and some archers and Sergeants. I already have a Norman army made up from a variety of manufacturers: not yet painted so I thought I could use them for the bulk of a First Crusade army and use the new ones for a later Crusade army, probably with the foot spearmen bulking it out. I'll probably stick to Essex figures with a few Donnington Originals as I know and like them.

I'll pop down to the library and look up some of the books.

The websites on standards for the armies are also really helpful, thank you.

[Swampster]

I have some comparison pics of various manufacturers covering the period on my blog http://swampster-danteswars.blogspot.co.uk/ e.g. these http://swampster-danteswars.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Comparison

You might find some of the links useful too. Much of it is dubious, but the heraldry from the Crusades rooms at Versailles is interesting.