The Empire is dead, long live the army

[Justin Swanton]

Fine, let's close it then.

It has been fun though. 

[Jim Webster]

It's a discussion that could restart when people have had time to go through the literature, there's an awful lot of interesting stuff out there which has been written taking into account archaeology, the original sources (which for Gaul is everything from Chronicles to Saints' lives and theological discussion) and work done on the agriculture and trade of the period.

Jim

[rodge]

As promised, the 'day's march' quote info:

The 'day's march' quote is not Halsall, it is from Elton 'Defence in 5thC Gaul' from Drinkwater and Elton's '5thC Gaul: A Crisis of Identity?'.

It is based on the idea that both Aegidius, post the victory at Orleans 463, and Syagrius (following his assumption of some kind of position of authority) had their hands full in Northern Gaul with threats from everywhere; including Franks, Saxons, Alamanni and Burgundians.
Aegidius' offensive operations stopped after Orleans perhaps because things were just too hot at home.
Aegidius' ambassadorship to the Vandals in 465 is attributed to the aim of cooperation against yet more threats to the southwest from the Visigoths, though this may be interpreted as the seeds of an offensive strategy.
Elton also states  that Aegidius may have had 'factions' (other than those led by Arbogast and Paul) of Roman attitude (but he does not, frustratingly name them, but says 'we also know of') who could have been subordinate, allied, non-aligned or even hostile to Aegidius.
Perhaps this is a reference to Gallo-Roman landowner factions who fancied themselves as the boss...or not.

His conclusion in this section of the paper:
'Though often portrayed as an independent Roman state in north Gaul, Aegidius and Syagrius' 'kingdom' was probably not much bigger than a day's march from their army'.

What is suggested is that northern Gaul was much more fragmentary than is conferred by the phrase 'the kingdom' and Aegidius' and Syagrius' grip on it only extended as far as the force they could project.

[Jim Webster]

This would explain why Syagrius fled when he was defeated. He didn't have any general support or 'legitimacy'. He was effectively a warlord dependent on the ability of his comitas/bucellarii and once they were broken he no longer had any control over the area.
The local power brokers were still strong enough to hold out. Or at least strong enough so that they may have been able to play off Franks and Visigoths, in that neither was willing to let the other control the area.

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks, Rodger.  I would suggest that if we resume discussion of the topic at some point it would be worth at the very least giving Sidonius' correspondence a good look through for what it tells us about conditions in southern Gaul, which seems to have been a lot more troubled and fought over than the Domain of Soissons.

Jim, your observation applies equally if Syagrius' power depended upon a regular army and he lost that.

[rodge]

Yes Patrick, I agree.
Let's all take a breather and resume if and when.

[Jim Webster]

Just something to throw into the pot and to stress that people really need to get a look at "Fifth-Century Gaul: A Crisis of Identity."

I've tried to attach an illustration taken from the book of coin finds from 5th century Gaul. It is interesting that there are no coins that anyone has said were minted by Syagrius, and the only coins found in what might be his territory are Visigoth (The black dots and the white circle with the line across it might be Frankish) . His core territory appears to be a coin free zone.
It makes it very difficult to see how he was supporting a regular force when there is no 5th century coinage found in his area.

[Erpingham]

Two observations.  I think there is some confusion over the realm of Syagrius - Justin seems to have acknowledge a much larger territory in the West, towards modern Brittany, than Jim, even without the comment that Rodger found.  Secondly, if we compare this coin find map with that in post #75, there are apparent 5th century coins in the latter which are not in this map.  Could be several reasons for that (e.g. one is more cautious on provenance than the other) but does suggest caution when using coin evidence to base any theory on.

That said, I agree with those who commented that maybe the subject should be rested till more evidence is available.

[Justin Swanton]

I'm trying to be good....

[Jim Webster]

Two observations.  I think there is some confusion over the realm of Syagrius - Justin seems to have acknowledge a much larger territory in the West, towards modern Brittany, than Jim, even without the comment that Rodger found.  Secondly, if we compare this coin find map with that in post #75, there are apparent 5th century coins in the latter which are not in this map.  Could be several reasons for that (e.g. one is more cautious on provenance than the other) but does suggest caution when using coin evidence to base any theory on.

That said, I agree with those who commented that maybe the subject should be rested till more evidence is available.

If you mean the maps at http://mediatheque.letourp.com/doc_num.php?explnum_id=6543

I thought the abstract was interesting

Abstract
The Roman isolated gold coins are more likely than hoards to give a picture of the monetary stock locally available in various circles of society. The cause of its isolation can be varied : loss, hiding, religious offer. The sample for 12 «départements» in the west of France consists of 209 coins covering 535 years. The analysis of geographical and chronological repartitions leads to
some hypothesis : quick but late penetration of gold ; bad économie integration of Armorica under the Julio-Claudians reflected by accumulations of inactive gold ; well balanced economy during the second century ; scarcity of coins during the third century except for the gallo-roman Empire ; wider circulation during the fourth and fifth centuries when gold is not necessarily connected with the presence of the army.

:-)

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

And there I suggest we leave the matter for the present, as a 'wider circulation of coins' suggests an  expansion of the kind of taxable economy that would support a regular army whether or not the discovered coins are directly linked to how that army is paid.

[Andreas Johansson]

If I'm excused for flogging the undead horse, all this is about gold coins, right? I would suggest that the expansion or contraction of a money economy is more likely to be discernible in smaller silver or copper coins - few day-to-day transactions would usefully conducted in gold.

If the circulation of high denominations (ie. gold coins) increases but that of smaller coins does not - I stress I don't know if this applies to 5C Gaul - I would suspect that to reflect the essentially non-monetary use of gold coins as high status gifts (Jim's soldiers' donatives, say) rather than anything about the health of the "real" economy.

(Of course, an increase in smaller coins doesn't necessarily reflect an expanding money economy either - cf again Iron Age Scandinavia - but it is more likely to do so than one in gold coins.)

[Jim Webster]

It is interesting that the Empire never really considered the need for 'small change' except inadvertently by debasing the currency which converted silver into small change. Some experts seem to hold that a lot of coins, such as the barbarous radiates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarous_radiate) were produced privately because of the desperate need for small change.
One of the coins circulating in Britain, notionally silver, doesn't seem to have had any silver in it, and even the lead included was lead from which the silver had been extracted.

When a government mints nothing but gold, a large proportion of the population are unlikely to handle cash and most 'retail' trade is going to be done on a barter basis.

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

We have had a few days for still-interested parties to dig around, at least metaphorically.

Has anyone unearthed any further evidence on this topic, and if so do they wish to air it?

[rodge]

I am in the process but am now swamped by work for the next 6 days so hopefully can post something the week after next