Claudius and his elephants

[Patrick Waterson]

One of your best so far, Jim.   

... even if the Carthaginians did have to ferry elephants in small loads they had more than enough time to build up a very large reserve force in Spain ...

True, Rhys.  I suspect that the elephant pool established in Spain by Hasdrubal was his private menagerie, so to speak, and not supported - or, more significantly, replenished - by the Carthaginian state.  The latter would have built up their own inventory in Africa, which may account for Appian crediting Hasdrubal with 140 at the time Scipio dropped in.

There is one more aspect I would wish to consider before we close and agree to differ: what would have been the reaction of untrained (or patently under-trained) elephants to Scipio's serenade package?

My own thinking is that they would have turned tail through their own troops.  Interestingly, not one did - granted, those on the ends went through friendly cavalry after receiving concentrated volleys of javelins from Scipio's cavalry, but their initial reaction was to head towards what looked like a more congenial enemy target - the cavalry - rather than to about-face and leave.

Interestingly, Alex at the Hydaspes seems to have handled Porus' elephants with his missile troops.

"The elephant drivers brought their beasts to meet the opposing cavalry, while the Macedonian phalanx [phalagx], in turn, advanced against them, some shooting the drivers [akontizontes] while others stood around the beasts hurling missiles [ballontes] at them from all sides." - Arrian V.17.3

Anyway, as you say, a good discussion. 

[Duncan Head]

Reverting (not to Claudius, but) to Julius Caesar and his uncertainly-attested British elephant, I find a claim that Caesar actually crossed a river on the back of this dubious beast - "Julius Caesar is said to have ensured his safe crossing over the Thames at Brentford on the back of an elephant". I suspect this is just a "Colchester-style" amplification of our one source, Polyainos, but maybe there's something else out there?

[Jim Webster]

It looks as if an elephant story is ricocheting around the half remembered history of South East England, and I'd guess that it comes from a mixture of novels and amateur antiquarians
I'd also guess that it comes initially from the same sources as Claudius

Jim

[Erpingham]

To add to the mythology, I was in the Museum of London last weekend and noticed one of the display boards in the Roman Britain section showed a reconstruction of a Roman assault crossing of a river with Claudius' elephants taking pride of place.  Each was crewed by three dark skinned men in loincloths armed with javelins and seated astride the elephant.  If reputable museums are buying into a combat role for these elephants, either they have sources we don't (which I doubt) or they are happy to "print the legend".

Incidentally, I also noticed in a pile of stonework what looked like a military tombstone which rather surprisingly showed the soldier with the classic squared oval scutum with central spine.  I'd thought these had gone out of use by the time the Romans reached London.  Unfortunately, the individual stones in this display weren't labelled so no idea of context.

[dwkay57]

Given the recent "call to keyboard" to produce more Slingshot material, I thought it might make an interesting or at least different article to summarise this discussion.

Initial draft attached and I'd welcome any comments or suggestions for corrections (to avoid looking too much of a fool) before submitting.

Thanks.

[Duncan Head]

Well done that man! I had been thinking along the same lines myself, but fortunately you beat me to it.

I think it might be worth quoting the original sources - certainly Cassius Dio on Claudius, probably Polyaenus on Caesar - so people can see  what (or how little...) the ancient sources actually do tell us.

[dwkay57]

Thanks for the feedback Duncan.

I can either amend one of the paragraphs slightly or happy for you to add an erudite postscript and submit it.

[Duncan Head]

Well, Patrick quoted Cassius Dio, the source for Claudius' elephant, on the first page of this thread, so it should be simple for you to incorporate that. I thought that someone had quoted the text of the Polyaenus anecdote too, but apparently not. So it is:

When Caesar's passage over a large river in Britain was disputed by the British king Cassivellaunus, at the head of a strong body of cavalry and a great number of chariots, he ordered an elephant, an animal till then unknown to the Britons, to enter the river first, mailed in scales of iron, with a tower on its back, on which archers and slingers were stationed. If the Britons were terrified at so extraordinary a spectacle, what shall I say of their horses? Amongst the Greeks, the horses fly at the sight of an unarmed elephant; but armoured, and with a tower on its back, from which missiles and stones are continually hurled, it is a sight too formidable to be borne. The Britons accordingly with their cavalry and chariots abandoned themselves to flight, leaving the Romans to pass the river unmolested, after the enemy had been routed by the appearance of a single beast.

From the highly useful Attalus site: http://www.attalus.org/translate/polyaenus8A.html

[aligern]

Might I suggest that: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Getty_Villa_-_Collection_(5305376768).jpg

would make a good companion illustration. its from Wikimedia Commons so should be free to use, we just have to attribute,
Has the advantage of being around 70 AD

Roy

[dwkay57]

Thanks Duncan - I think the quote about Caesar's elephant was in the link you sent to the dodgy history site which ended up discussing whether Claudius could mount an elephant. I've added both quotes as a postscript.

Re-reading the description of the elephant again, I'm reminded of the early Minifgs model which was described as being an elephant in quilted pyjamas.

I did find in the Osprey book The Roman Army (editor Chris McNab) a reference to elephants at the battle of Thapsus (46BC) where it says "Caesar had no intention of employing his own elephants in battle - he is said to have considered the lumbering, tusked bull elephant a menace to both sides." The implication of this being that Caesar did have some elephants available of use.

[dwkay57]

Quotes added and article submitted!

[Patrick Waterson]

Good work - look forward to seeing it.