Movement of dark age infantry and cavalry through woods

[Sharur]

Quick "Beowulf" update, as I've managed to access the British Library's digitised version of Cotton MS Vitellius A XV now, and can confirm it does indeed say what it's supposed to - on folio 168v, six ms lines up from the end of that page to help avoid eyestrain!

[Imperial Dave]

Alistair, your eyesight is better than mine as I wouldnt have picked it out without your pointer!

Thanks for the info. The wiki article makes reference to the poem being written down in England so presume English connotations and the like will creep in. ie if its written for an English audience then English "language" and nuances are likely to be used

This is indeed a nice little anecdotal reference and am happy to use it as such 

[Dave Beatty]

On a completely different continent and long, long ago in my misspent youth I spent a bit of time cowboying in the high Rockies of Colorado. A big part of the job was rousting cattle out of the National Forests in the fall before the hunting season (the ranchers can run cows in them for a modest fee and did not want any crazy Texan shooting his cows thinking they were elk - yes, it happens all the time). I quickly learned that my horse was far better at crashing through the timber than was I and as long as I bent low on his neck I'd generally avoid getting smacked in the face with blue spruce branches. Also, a good cow pony would clamber over windfall far better than ever I could on foot. Having stirrups and a good western saddle was a big help too.

Point being that horsemen can actually penetrate heavily wooded terrain. And in my personal experience just as fast or faster than footmen.

[Jim Webster]

One problem with travelling in woods is that you can go a long while with no external references, and when paths go 'sort of the right way' but twist and bend to avoid impenetrable obstacles,it's very easy to get yourself 'turned round' if you don't know the area.
On the fells I rarely need a compass because so often you can see the destination, or a known intermediate point on the way to the destination.
In woods I check my compass somewhat more often 

[aligern]

It may be significant that armies rest flanks on woods and do not attempt to outflank through them....its just too uncertain, outflankers goud get lost, delayed, dispersed.
Following Jim, paths can be a real problem in woods as they may well not go where you want them to and lead parties astray. Paths tend to avoid thickets and marshy bits and not go straight, or have forks in them which both go in the wrong direction.
'It isn't very good in the dark dark wood'

Roy

[Erpingham]

I half recollect a comment by a 19th soldier about woods being like a sponge.  You can keep sending units into them but very little comes out again.  This is a tactical comment rather than strategic though.

Overall, I'd say it is easier for small groups to move coherently through woods than larger formations.  So anchoring a flank on a wood doesn't prevent your enemy from attacking from it but any attack is likely to be unco-ordinated and piecemeal (as Roy has already commented) and inherently more counteractable.

[Imperial Dave]

so piecemeal groups of foot and horse move ok through woods but most of the unit 'structure' and presumably fighting effectiveness dissolves somewhat whilst traversing it

[Erpingham]

Incidentally dave, are you aware of this book?

Title   Warfare in Woods and Forests
Author   Anthony Clayton
Publisher   Indiana University Press, 2011
ISBN   0253005531, 9780253005533

Obviously of much wider scope than our period but may tell you something useful.

[Imperial Dave]

Incidentally dave, are you aware of this book?

Title   Warfare in Woods and Forests
Author   Anthony Clayton
Publisher   Indiana University Press, 2011
ISBN   0253005531, 9780253005533

Obviously of much wider scope than our period but may tell you something useful.

thanks for the heads up Anthony.....another one for the list!