Looking for clues as to the origins of the Gewisse and the Hwicce

[Imperial Dave]

I am wading through lots of references currently with regards to the origins of the Gewisse (Gewissae/Gewissei) and also the Hwicce (Hwicca).

Some scholars interpret the Gewisse as a sub group of the West Saxons occupying/taking over large areas of the Thames valley from Oxford through to Gloucestershire. Others have the Gewisse as mixed race political/ideological unit of peoples possibly containing Irish, British as well as "Saxon" elements. Further to this there are inferences that Vortigern may have been ruler of the Gewisse at one point and that Cerdic (Ceretic, Caradog) also assumes leadership of the group later. The Gewisse are implicated/involved in the battle of Dyrham in 577AD and possibly that of Fethan Leag in 584AD.

With regards to the Hwicce, the references are more obscure but it is stated that they occupy the area around Worcestershire and Gloucestershire and are a mixed race of Saxons and British peoples. The Anglo Saxon Chronicle states that they are separate from the West Saxons around the turn of the 7th century

What others have suggested either by etymology, or the fact that much of the geographical area of "operations" appears to be quite similar is that the Gewisse and the Hwicce are either the same group or very closely related.

What I am trying to do is find some good references to look into this in more detail and I would beg others to recommend any of merit to me.

For what its worth my current thinking (based upon what I have read - translations of primary sources and from secondary sources I'm afraid) is thus:

The Gewisse are a Late Roman military unit based or operating around Gloucestershire and the Thames Valley in the 4th Century probably originally Germanic in origin although there is a hint of a suggestion of an Irish connection
In the 5th Century they have have begun to intermingle with the British population but retain a strong Germanic and military identity and are used as professional soldiers by a succession of sub Roman leaders including possibly the ethereal Vortigern
Later they are attached to a specific leader called Cerdic (possibly British in origin) who uses them to create a kingdom in the Gloucestershire/Worcestershire/Oxfordshire area
They are present at the battle of Dyrham in 577AD (a victory) and probably Fethan Leag in 584AD (possibly a defeat or a costly victory)
Afterwards they are put under pressure by the Mercian expansion of the late 6th and early 7th Century and become a sub kingdom of the Mercians and become refered to as the Hwicce. At this point they are confined to Gloucestershire and Worcestershire and border the kingdoms of Gwent/Glywysing/Ergyng and Powys 

What say you good people?

[Duncan Head]

Not something I know much about, but are you aware of this and this?

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks Duncan, much appreciated.

The first is already on order  but I hadnt spotted the 2nd book you mention so thanks for that. I might get hold of that as well.

My eyes are a bit bug eyed at the minute with cross referencing lots of sources hence the call for help! 

[Sharur]

If you've checked Duncan's suggested printed references, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot more online, although "Gewisse" seems a lot less popular than "Hwicce" as a tribal name from this period among the Internet sources (plus there's Google's irritating tendency to want to translate "Gewisse" into "Certain", because obviously, modern English-speakers can't cope with occasional proper nouns in foreign languages...).

However, I did come across this site:

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/EnglandHwicce.htm

which has a useful summary of Hwicce's "history" that isn't Wikipedia, with links to additional features, explanations and a basic map of Anglo-Saxon Britain.

[Imperial Dave]

Hi Alastair, thanks for this. I had found the article you refer to as well and found it really useful and would direct others to take a squint at it as its a pretty good summary + interpretations

As you put it, Gewisse is a less frequently described tribal name than the Hwicce and this may fit in with my loose "hypothesis" that the Gewisse were a political or cultural grouping rather than a geographical or genetically related grouping (mind you that could be said for a lot of wandering Germanic groups at this time!). They also "predate" the Hwicce and by the time the Hwicce are refered to they have put down their "roots" are are more tribal and fixed in nature and location

[Duncan Head]

If the continuity of territory and religion from the Dobunni to the Hwicce, suggested in the Tribe of Witches book, is convincing - and I don't know if it is, I'll be interested in what you make of the book - then it suggests that the Hwicce are either a simple continuation of the Romano-British civitas, in which case they probably have nothing to do with the Gewissae; or else are the Dobunni taken over wholesale "under new management", in which case they might.

[Imperial Dave]

That's a good point re the Dobunni to Hwicce proposal as laid out in the book you highlighted. I will be interested to review the argument for that as well. All the information I have viewed so far (which to be fair is thin) tends to support the Hwicce being a mix of Sub Roman and Germanic peoples and were clearly "different" enough to be referred to in their own right away from the normal West Saxon and later Mercian groupings

[aligern]

Something that sticks in my mind from a while back.
There was a settlement of federate Germanics around Dorchester.  It was put there to defend the frontier of one of the civitates against those to the East. Those and a mixing with locals created the original core of the West Saxons who then projected their power down into Hampshire, incorporating the Jutes who had settled on the coast and pushing back the  Britons.
The Hwicce might be a Western projection of this group. I think its covered in that book 'Ceawlin'.

One other point, there was a suggestion that the laws of Wessex that give a reduced wergild which was thought to be for Welshmen, might in fact be a reduced wergild for laets, people of Germanic origin who were in groups that had served, for land, under the British and had then transferred their obligation to the new conquerors.
Roy

[Duncan Head]

.... clearly "different" enough to be referred to in their own right away from the normal West Saxon and later Mercian groupings

But so are a lot of small peoples in the West Midlands/Marches area - Magonsaetan, Wreocensaetan, Westerna and so on, known from the Tribal Hidage and elsewhere. The "normal" Wessex/Mercia division may be quite late.

[Imperial Dave]

Something that sticks in my mind from a while back.
There was a settlement of federate Germanics around Dorchester.  It was put there to defend the frontier of one of the civitates against those to the East. Those and a mixing with locals created the original core of the West Saxons who then projected their power down into Hampshire, incorporating the Jutes who had settled on the coast and pushing back the  Britons.
The Hwicce might be a Western projection of this group. I think its covered in that book 'Ceawlin'.

One other point, there was a suggestion that the laws of Wessex that give a reduced wergild which was thought to be for Welshmen, might in fact be a reduced wergild for laets, people of Germanic origin who were in groups that had served, for land, under the British and had then transferred their obligation to the new conquerors.
Roy

Thanks Roy, The Gewisse/Hwicce indeed have elements of what you point out above refered to by several sources. It would make sense and be consistent with where Laeti or at least Foederati might be positioned to help with defence of the South. One thread I followed suggested that "Vortigern" was a leader or Dux of the Gewisse and based in that area (so possibly by deduction Count of the Saxon Shore?). If that were true it would place a loyal band of professional soldiers in the employ/control of a major (although still not wholly tangible) protagonist at the time of the supposed Adventus Saxonum. It would then make sense that he invited more Germanic additonal troops at some point in time.....?

If Vortigern loses out to (eventually) an ambitious leader such as Cerdic (who is assumed to have some British ancestry) it could be the prelude to West Saxon expansion and thus "transplanting of the Gewisse/Hwicce to the "final" area around Gloucester/Worcestershire

[Imperial Dave]

.... clearly "different" enough to be referred to in their own right away from the normal West Saxon and later Mercian groupings

But so are a lot of small peoples in the West Midlands/Marches area - Magonsaetan, Wreocensaetan, Westerna and so on, known from the Tribal Hidage and elsewhere. The "normal" Wessex/Mercia division may be quite late.

This is true Duncan and I had forgotten (!!!) the Tribal Hidage in terms of Gemanic/Saxon groupings as you quite rightly point out. I will read a little bit more into souch groupings as general backdrop to my research.

[Duncan Head]

Bringing this thread back from the dead: I've just stumbled across http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/25802/7/Coates~HwicceASE~amend.pdf which suggests a British origin for the name Hwicce, making any Gewissae connection much less likely.

[Imperial Dave]

blimey....thanks Duncan. I'll have a read of it

[Anton]

It is an interesting read, thanks Duncan. 

As an aside the author thinks the name of Gwynedd comes from a geographical association, I'd say it comes from Feni as Koch and Charles-Edwards conclude. Feni is an Irish term as in the perennial refrain in the Irish law texts 'the law of the Feni says'.

[Imperial Dave]

been reading more into this (as you do) and I am more inclined to think that the Gewisse and the Hwicce are probably (but not certainly) different sub groups from each other. Looking at some of the battle of the 6th century there is a suggestion that the Hwicce might be indeed a mixed Germanic/British group (although more British in the earlier part of the century clearly) and fought against the inhabitants of Gwent. Looking at (alleged) lesser known battles, the Book of Llandaff has a battle between 'Saxons' and 'Britons' at Tintern in Monmouthshire on the River Wye in the 6th Century. the funny thing is, the Britons are led by Tewdrig (Theoderic) a fairly Germanic sounding leader and against potentially other Britons + Germanics from Magonsaete or Hwicce possibly led by a British leader Kynan