Looking for clues as to the origins of the Gewisse and the Hwicce

[Anton]

I think they are separate groups too. 

Would that be Kynan Garwyn Mab Brochfael active around 560 to 615 AD?  If so Koch discusses the Magon connection and gives us Heechan to think about, no Germans with Kynan if I'm recollecting correctly but certainly incursions into what's now Wales.

[Imperial Dave]

I think they are separate groups too. 

Would that be Kynan Garwyn Mab Brochfael active around 560 to 615 AD?  If so Koch discusses the Magon connection and gives us Heechan to think about, no Germans with Kynan if I'm recollecting correctly but certainly incursions into what's now Wales.

Yes (re Kynan). The only thing to discuss is that the Magon/Hwicce/Heechan(Hecani) were at some point in the 6th considered a mixed race but with the majority 'ethnicity' of being British

Not really for this thread but for the other (Camelot) but since we are on Kynan.......there is a reference in the "Trawsganu Kynan Garwyn" poem to Kynan (Cynan) having a sword with a 'stone' or ornamented sheath/scabbard

- Cledyf guein karrec

The next line says the sword is (additionally) bright hilted and better than any

- dyrngell guell ho neb

sounds a bit Arthurian to me

[Patrick Waterson]

Cynan of Cymria sounds a bit Robert E Howard to me ...

Though it would be much easier for him to pull his sword from the 'stone' than for the traditional Arthurian contender in the traditional lapidary arrangement.

Apologies for interrupting.  Please continue the interesting discussion.

[Imperial Dave]

no problem at all Patrick. Taking the aside a little further its interesting to see that the Arthurian sword in the stone legend could be from a reference to a stone adorned sword/scabbard as per the 6th century Kynan poem........

[Patrick Waterson]

... provided it had a concealed lock and a means of release known to (or serendipitously found by) just one person out of the collected upper crust of contemporary Cymria - unless one regards the collection of unsuccessful hopefuls as subsequent bardic window-dressing.  But then we would be left with: prince owns sword, prince draws it from scabbard.  Apart from it being a pretty sword, we are left wondering what is so remarkable about such an action as to establish a permanent place in later legend.

I think you may be on to something, but only if the said sword and scabbard were coveted royal heirlooms with a cunning secret for release.  If so, then the presence of a special (and hopefully anti-haemorrhaging) scabbard is a ready-made extra and all we need to do is to find Ron ...

[Imperial Dave]

indeed yes 

am not saying it is the root of that particular aspect of the legend but it is very interesting none the less. As my Granddad used to say....no smoke without fire and all legends have a kernel of truth in there somewhere even if very very small

mind you my Granddad also used to say if its not hurting its not doing any good (well that's what he used to tell Grandma anyway)

[Patrick Waterson]

Definitely something to make a note of for possible future reference.  (Cynan's sword, I mean, rather than your grandfather's advocacy of the pain threshold as a guide to progress. )

Back on the main subject of the thread, have Duncan's findings pretty much dissolved the likelihood of a Gewisse/Hwicce connection?

[Imperial Dave]

I am not 100% convinced but the evidence presented in Duncan's reply are pretty detailed. I need to do some more digging and cross referencing to live up to that standard of argument!

[Patrick Waterson]

Good hunting!

[Imperial Dave]

The stuff I have read regarding the Gewisse does tend to point to an origin around the upper Thames area but with a high degree of probability of foederati/laeti origin AND with probable British leadership from the 5th through to possibly sometime in the 7th century. The origin of the term is not as clear cut as some would suggest but my take on it is the 'traditional' view of reliable/sure/wise. It could be an indication of the reliability of the Gewisse as foederati in a time (5/6th century) of shifting alliances. As an aside and in a very small minority, I also question the normal etymology of Wessex as an entity come from 'west saxons'. It is possible to transmute Gewisse to Wessex though as I say this is very much the minority view!

Hwicce does tend to associate with Heccan as a geographical area and phonetically they are close. Having said that there are still proponents of the Gewisse/Hwicce connection. My proposal would potentially be that the Gewisse form the rump of the West Saxons and the Hwicce )as Duncan says) form a projection of that grouping who then migrate to another area where they either adopt the tribal name for the area (around Hereford/Worcester etc) OR take a form of their original name which gets transmuted.