Early Italian Warfare

[Mark G]

I'm not so sure this fits the descriptions
.
And the Sparta s are far too passive

[Patrick Waterson]

If we keep this up, we might be able to arrive at tentative orders of battle for each major Etruscan city for each century (and maybe half-century).  Previous studies have tended to lump all Etruscans together as a single and perhaps unified military system, but I think our evidence is increasingly showing this not to be the case.

There are some interesting pictures in this article on the Etruscans in the Po Valley. (The text may be interesting as well, but I haven't struggled with it yet.) Of course not all the illustrations are Etruscan, some of them are comparative.

Excellent find, Duncan.  I attempted to run the text through Google Translate in quest of dates, but it locked me out.  C'est la vie ...

[andrew881runner]

I'm not so sure this fits the descriptions
.
And the Sparta s are far too passive

yep I should have made athens/etruscans charge, maybe together with Spartans. They would have us4d swords more, too (I tried in another game). But playing against artificial intelligence has its own problems. Anyway I have noticed that at least some of the real tactical problems are noticeable even playing (for example, phalanx good in defense but moving slow, not flexible, breaking the line easily when there are obstacles in the ground...). Even the lower arm vs upper arm problem is Clearly visible. My idea is that in close order upper arm is better because the angle of the spear does not create problems for the guys behind, otherwise lower arm is better in single duels, no doubt.

[Mark G]

That also doesn't fit with the evidence though.

This idea that the phalanx was defensive and slow is not born out by the evidence, such as sources describing the phalanx charging, and attacking at a run.

[Erpingham]

There are some interesting pictures in this article on the Etruscans in the Po Valley. (The text may be interesting as well, but I haven't struggled with it yet.) Of course not all the illustrations are Etruscan, some of them are comparative.

There seem to be plenty of oval and rectangular shields in there.  It is a shame the captions aren't fuller - presumably, the details are buried in the text.  Some are probably chaseable through internet search if you know where they came from e.g.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Museo_archeologico_di_Rosignano_Marittimo,_stele_di_guerriero_da_castiglioncello,_fine_IV_inizio_III_sec._ac..JPG

Late 4th - early 3rd century, as the file title says.

[andrew881runner]

That also doesn't fit with the evidence though.

This idea that the phalanx was defensive and slow is not born out by the evidence, such as sources describing the phalanx charging, and attacking at a run.

I remember I have read somewhere that Spartans attacked marching slowly in silence. Not running or charging.

[Duncan Head]

This idea that the phalanx was defensive and slow is not born out by the evidence, such as sources describing the phalanx charging, and attacking at a run.

I remember I have read somewhere that Spartans attacked marching slowly in silence. Not running or charging.

Yes, but that is in contrast with the way that other Greek phalanxes behaved - it doesn't mean that the hoplite phalanx as such was slow:

As they drew together, for a while deep silence reigned on either side; but when they were not more than a stade apart, with the loud hurrah the Thebans, quickening to a run, rushed furiously to close quarters; and now there was barely a hundred yards breadth between the two armies, when Herippidas with his foreign brigade, and with them the Ionians, Aeolians, and Hellespontines, darted out from the Spartans' battle-lines to greet their onset. One and all of the above played their part in the first rush forward; in another instant they were within spear-thrust of the enemy, and had routed the section immediately before them...

[andrew881runner]

This idea that the phalanx was defensive and slow is not born out by the evidence, such as sources describing the phalanx charging, and attacking at a run.

I remember I have read somewhere that Spartans attacked marching slowly in silence. Not running or charging.

Yes, but that is in contrast with the way that other Greek phalanxes behaved - it doesn't mean that the hoplite phalanx as such was slow:

As they drew together, for a while deep silence reigned on either side; but when they were not more than a stade apart, with the loud hurrah the Thebans, quickening to a run, rushed furiously to close quarters; and now there was barely a hundred yards breadth between the two armies, when Herippidas with his foreign brigade, and with them the Ionians, Aeolians, and Hellespontines, darted out from the Spartans' battle-lines to greet their onset. One and all of the above played their part in the first rush forward; in another instant they were within spear-thrust of the enemy, and had routed the section immediately before them...

ok, i could even make them running and charging and even yelling when close, not a problem, it was only a first attempt. Anyway I find the possibility to recreate somehow historical battles, even with same numbers, and warriors (there are mods who recreate armors very historically accurate, not that one I have used anyway) with modern graphical "games"/simulators very interesting, don't you agree?
(ok, back on topic, sorry [emoji6])

[Mark G]

Oh yes,
Of course, you really want the processing power that weta uses for its cgi.

The goal is a good one.

I would be tempted to try some specific battles, though.  Ones for which we have a good idea of the deployment.

[Erpingham]

One interesting aspect of Etruscan warfare which certainly isn't Greek is use of the axe.  The paper Duncan shared showed a quite distinctive set of images of men with single handed axes and there are others.  These are single headed axes but there was an image with a double-headed axe and an example of what I take to be an all-iron example.  There is a famous image of a hoplite-type with one of these.  I suspect that these two-headed axes might have a symbolic rather than just a combat function - cf fasces - perhaps symbolizing authority?  What I haven't found so far is an an image of a two-handed axe in combat, although they feature in wargames figure ranges and computer games.  Is there a literary basis for this weapon, or have a missed some obvious images?

[Duncan Head]

See here for a suggestion that the Etruscan use of the Greek aspis didn't make them Greek-style hoplites - using the axe as one example of why they weren't.

(There is some evidence for Phoenician-Punic use of two-headed axes, as well, but I suspect them of being emblems of rank.)

[Patrick Waterson]

Late 4th - early 3rd century, as the file title says.

Just when the Romans effectively subdued Etruria (311-280 BC).  Are we seeing Roman influence here?

[Duncan Head]

Just when the Romans effectively subdued Etruria (311-280 BC).  Are we seeing Roman influence here?

Or vice versa? Maule & Smith in Votive Religion at Caere reckon that some of the Caere statuettes with Montefortino helmet, muscle cuirass, oval scutum, and sword on the right may predate the Roman adoption of the scutum (which they date to Camillus, a chronology with which not everyone may agree - and to be honest, the dating of the statuettes isn't all that firm, either!).

Or Samnite-Oscan influence, perhaps?

[andrew881runner]

One interesting aspect of Etruscan warfare which certainly isn't Greek is use of the axe.  The paper Duncan shared showed a quite distinctive set of images of men with single handed axes and there are others.  These are single headed axes but there was an image with a double-headed axe and an example of what I take to be an all-iron example.  There is a famous image of a hoplite-type with one of these.  I suspect that these two-headed axes might have a symbolic rather than just a combat function - cf fasces - perhaps symbolizing authority?  What I haven't found so far is an an image of a two-handed axe in combat, although they feature in wargames figure ranges and computer games.  Is there a literary basis for this weapon, or have a missed some obvious images?

I remember from school art classes that minoic civilization often used the 2 heads axe in many painting. Since its use in battle is scarcely effective, the idea is that it was a symbol of authority and power. Look at Roman lictori who accompanied consul. They brought this 2 head axe together with many wooden shafts packed. Symbol of the punitive or killing power of the consul. So Romans inherited this symbol from etruscans who inherited it from Greek civilization who inherited it from minoic civilization. More or less. This is only what I remember.
Anyway, it was not a battle axe.

[Duncan Head]

Even if the double-headed axe was never a practical weapon, there are so many other axes from Etruscan and other Italian sources with single blades that it is hard to dismiss them all. For example, the four axemen at the end of the Certosa Situla procession (Veneti?); the Umbrian axehead from the Castellonchio tomb at http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dpd/italica/armor/c-panoplies.html; the stele of Larthi Aninies.