Early Italian Warfare

[Jim Webster]

Remember that the Athenian phalanx was composed of tribal units, the Boeotian was provided by a federation, and I'm not sure we hear of each contingent bringing their own standard. That's why it interested me

In many cases the artist may well have carried a shield, in some Greek cities artists were wealthy enough to be hoplites or at least could serve, so I think he can be expected to know the details.
If you can see the left elbow, I think we can assume centre grip 

Jim

[aligern]

Sorry Patrick, at the battle I am thinking of both Romans and Etruscans jettison their throwing weapons.I recall that the Romans are taken aback by the Etruscans' unwonted aggression.
Roy


Robert, Look at the Giglioli tomb. If the weapons shown are indeed pila  then they are presumably a set with the aspides on the walls.

[gavindbm]

Just on standards... David Karunanithy (who I'm reading at present) comes down in favour of the Macedonian phalanx units getting standards only post Alexander.  This might mean they where not much used in Greek phalanx warfare for unit location/cohesion purposes ...

[aligern]

Robert, you might like to look at the other two situlae that were cited earlier when the thread was titled Roman line relief. they are the arnoaldi and Benvenuti situlae. Both show men in Italic style plumed helmets with two spears and something very like an aspis.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/illustration/benvenuti-situla-detail-showing-a-prisoner-being-led-stock-graphic/148357965

Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

Sorry Patrick, at the battle I am thinking of both Romans and Etruscans jettison their throwing weapons.I recall that the Romans are taken aback by the Etruscans' unwonted aggression.

Is it this one (Livy IX.35) from 310 BC?  The Etruscans discard their 'missiles' and 'draw swords'.

"During the progress of this affair in Rome, the Etruscans were already laying siege to Sutrium; and the consul Fabius, leading his army along the foot of the mountains to relieve the allies, and, if in any way practicable, to attack the works of the besiegers, encountered the enemy drawn up in line of battle. [2] The plain spreading out below him revealed to the consul their exceeding strength; and in order to make up for his own deficiency in numbers by the advantage of position, he altered slightly his line of march, so as to mount the hills —which were rough and covered with stones —and there turned and faced the enemy. [3] The Etruscans, forgetting everything but their numbers, in which alone they trusted, entered the combat with such haste and eagerness that they cast away their missiles [ut abiectis missilibus] in order to come the sooner to close quarters, and drawing their swords [stringerent gladios] rushed at the enemy. [4] The Romans, on the contrary, fell to pelting them, now with javelins [tela = missiles] and now with stones, of which latter the ground itself provided a good supply; [5] and even such of the Etruscans as were not wounded were confused by the blows that rattled down on their helms and shields. [6] it was no easy matter to get close enough for fighting hand to hand, and they had no missiles for long-range work [neque missilia habebant]. there they stood, exposed to missiles, with no adequate cover of any sort, and as some of them gave ground and the line began to waver and be unsteady, the Roman first and second lines, giving a fresh cheer, charged them, sword in hand. [7] their onset was too much for the Etruscans, who faced about and fled headlong towards their camp. [8] but the Roman cavalry, riding obliquely across the plain, presented themselves in front of the fugitives, who then abandoned the attempt to reach their camp and sought the mountains; from which they made their way in a body, unarmed and suffering from their wounds, to the Ciminian Forest. The Romans, having slain many thousand Etruscans and captured eight-and-thirty standards, took possession also of the enemy's camp, with a very large booty."

Livy adds:

"They then began to consider the feasibility of a pursuit."

[Jim Webster]

38 standards means that units aren't going to be very large, cohort sized perhaps 

Thinking back to the other account where the Etruscans formed up in one line with no reinforcements was this perhaps because they were outnumbered and had to either match the Roman frontage or get outflanked and surrounded

Jim

[aligern]

YEs Patrick, thank you for that. Interesting that Livy has the Etruscans casting away their pill in their eagerness to get to grips, but no where can I remember Livy telling us that the Etruscans reformed their army or moved from spears to tela. Clearly missile armed Etruscan armies are not oddities or novelties.

Thirty eight standards is the minimum amount. It does suggest that the units are cohort sized and it does lend an air of accuracy to the report because the standards become trophies in a temple and are then a matter of enduring record.

Roy

[Erpingham]

Re : Argive shields. 

Having been searching through images in connection to this thread, can I commend this category on wikipedia commons

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Lucanian_frescos_in_the_Museo_archeologico_nazionale_%28Paestum%29

You will see most of the combatants have what is clearly an argive shield.  Most are shown dueling with short spears or javelins .  Some have a different type of round shield, with a narrow rim and a pronounced pointedness at the centre e.g.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Lucanian_frescos_in_the_Museo_archeologico_nazionale_%28Paestum%29#mediaviewer/File:Paestum_Kampfszene_2.jpg

So we can suggest that the Argive aspis was not the only round shield, but it does seem to take its place alongside this other type in spear & javelin fights.

[aligern]

Brilliant find Anthony. Of course these are South Italian, but I love the one where two chaps are duelling, clearly with shields with an asps like grip and are using a pair of small javelins and a spear held a bit like a Zulu assegai for thrusting.
One interesting point reference the asps is that the hand that is on the rim is holding a rope loop and is not taking the main weight of the shield and can thus be used to hold extra javelins rather more easily than the hand on a central grip.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Lucanian_frescos_in_the_Museo_archeologico_nazionale_%28Paestum%29#mediaviewer/File:Paestum_Kampfszene_2.jpg

Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

YEs Patrick, thank you for that. Interesting that Livy has the Etruscans casting away their pill in their eagerness to get to grips, but no where can I remember Livy telling us that the Etruscans reformed their army or moved from spears to tela. Clearly missile armed Etruscan armies are not oddities or novelties.

Livy does not ascribe pila to the Etruscans, but says: 'abjectis missilibus', having cast away their missiles.  Later in the passage he notes they are lacking missiles 'neque missilia habebant', whereas the Romans are using 'tela', a more generic missile word perhaps denoting pila and hastae.  Perhaps more indicative is that the Etruscans 'stringerent gladios', which seems to preclude an attack using spears for melee.

We may note that this 'new army' was raised between the two battles ("Fabius brought up replacements from Rome, and a new army came from Etruria to reinforce the enemy." - Livy IX.33.1)  Whether the 'new army' (novus exercitus) was new in organisation and tactics is not stated.

Thirty eight standards is the minimum amount. It does suggest that the units are cohort sized and it does lend an air of accuracy to the report because the standards become trophies in a temple and are then a matter of enduring record.

Yes, and we may note that this is also the year after the Romans themselves may have shifted from the 'Livian' legion to the 'Polybian' one.  It would be ironic if the Etruscans had shifted from a hoplite configuration to a legion-like configuration only to be out-shifted by the new style Roman legion, but that is conjecture.

Thinking back to the other account where the Etruscans formed up in one line with no reinforcements was this perhaps because they were outnumbered and had to either match the Roman frontage or get outflanked and surrounded

Livy actually reckons the Romans were outnumbered: "numero hostis, virtute Romanus superat" (the enemy were superior in numbers, the Romans in soldierliness).  In each of these actions he indicates the Etruscans were relying on their numbers.

Brilliant find Anthony. Of course these are South Italian, but I love the one where two chaps are duelling, clearly with shields with an asps like grip and are using a pair of small javelins and a spear held a bit like a Zulu assegai for thrusting.

Without wishing to rain on anyone's parade, such duelling duets are also a familiar feature of artwork from distinctly hoplite cultures.  Still, the more material we have to work with, the better.

[andrew881runner]

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17017
I have found pictures here very informative. Especially the picture with a lot of explanations about etruscan equipment. It says that etruscans used mainly the Greek panoply but even some typical Italian central grip Shields were found. Probably they were the Shields of some Italian towns submitted to etruscans. Then you see representations of first class/third class etruscan warriors. The hoplites were the ones in first class, while third class have a scutum shield a typical helmet and Wear only a bronze plate on chest, exactly as Villanova ancestors of etruscans. This was an adaptations of Greek military into proper etruscan society, divided into different social classes.
You can see the remaining of an etruscan pilum too.

[Erpingham]

Without wishing to rain on anyone's parade, such duelling duets are also a familiar feature of artwork from distinctly hoplite cultures.  Still, the more material we have to work with, the better.

The purposes of drawing attention to this were two fold.  Firstly, to satisfy Jim's query about whether all round shields were the argive type.  Second, to contribute to the technological-determinism question of whether, if you owned an argive shield, you were fated to fight in close formation with a long spear.

What these duelists are doing is another question.  Is this weapon practice?  Is this a specific sporting contest, where the idea is to wound your opponent rather than kill?  Is this fight part of the funeral games, governed by special rules, different to war fighting? 

Personally, I edge towards some kind of funeral games explanation but I'd expect the panoply and weaponry to reflect warrior kit, rather than be some special funeral set.

[Jim Webster]

Thinking back to the other account where the Etruscans formed up in one line with no reinforcements was this perhaps because they were outnumbered and had to either match the Roman frontage or get outflanked and surrounded

Livy actually reckons the Romans were outnumbered: "numero hostis, virtute Romanus superat" (the enemy were superior in numbers, the Romans in soldierliness).  In each of these actions he indicates the Etruscans were relying on their numbers.

When discussing Livy and the Romans being outnumbered, I feel the Mandy Rice-Davies reply is called for, "well he would say that, wouldn't he"? 

I'd love to have the time to do an analysis of Livy's battle accounts and work out what proportion the Romans outnumber their opponents and in what proportion Livy reckons they're outnumbered

Jim

[Jim Webster]

Thanks Anthony, I've seen those round shields in an Italian context before, and is one reason why I wonder whether the presence of a round shield has to indicate hoplite tactics.

Jim

[Erpingham]

When discussing Livy and the Romans being outnumbered, I feel the Mandy Rice-Davies reply is called for, "well he would say that, wouldn't he"? 

I have to say, from my non-classical perspective, I had a similar thought.  The Etruscans always seem to lack military skill but rely on numbers, against the plucky Romans' virtus.  Or does Livy rise above the constraints of only having one side of the story?