Greek Hoplites with Shorter Spears

[Patrick Waterson]

While perusing Xenophon's account of the Second Battle of Mantinea (the one in which Epaminondas meets the ferryman) I noticed that prior to the battle Xenophon mentions the Thebans, hoplites and all, sharpening their 'logkhas' and 'makhairas'.

"For at the time when he gave them the last order to make ready, saying that there would be a battle, the horsemen eagerly whitened their helmets at his command, the hoplites of the Arcadians painted clubs upon their shields*, as though they were Thebans, and all alike sharpened their logkhas (see below) and makhairas (swords) and burnished their aspidas (shields)." - Hellenica VII.5.20

(Thebans used a club symbol on their shields)

Logkhas (singular 'logkhe', also 'loncha') were dual-use throwing/thrusting spears optimised for throwing as javelins.  The surprise here is that the hoplites should have been sharpening 'dorata', spears of perhaps 9' length which were standard for the hoplite era.

Xenophon is not usually one to confuse his use of weapon terminology, which leads one to wonder:

1) Has the logkhe replaced the dora as the principal hoplite weapon as of 362 BC?

2) Is the loghke being carried in addition to the doru, and the latter left unmentioned?

3) Is Xenophon using 'logkhe' as a catch-all term for all long pointy sticks in the Theban army?

A further twist is the death of Epaminondas in this battle.  Xenophon does not mention how it occurred, his account being:

"Epaminondas on the other hand had made a strong column of his cavalry, also, and had mingled foot soldiers among them, believing that when he cut through the enemy's cavalry, he would have defeated the entire opposing army; for it is very hard to find men who will stand firm when they see any of their own side in flight. And in order to prevent the Athenians on the left wing from coming to the aid of those who were posted next to them, he stationed both horsemen and hoplites upon some hills over against them, desiring to create in them the fear that if they proceeded to give aid, these troops would fall upon them from behind.

When, however, he had himself fallen, those who were left proved unable to take full advantage thereafter even of the victory; but although the opposing phalanx had fled before them, their hoplites did not kill a single man or advance beyond the spot where the collision had taken place; and although the cavalry also had fled before them, their cavalry in like manner did not pursue and kill either horsemen or hoplites, but slipped back timorously, like beaten men, through the lines of the flying enemy. Furthermore, while the intermingled footmen and the peltasts, who had shared in the victory of the cavalry, did make their way like victors to the region of the enemy's left wing, most of them were there slain by the Athenians. " - idem 24-25

How would Epaminondas die if his foes did not stay to fight?  His demise would have to come about through a missile weapon, suggesting that both sides' hoplites may have been so equipped.

Diodorus (XV.86) notes that:

"Epaminondas ... led his battalion* in the charge and was the first to hurl his javelin (kai prōtos akontisas), and hit the commander of the Lacedaemonians."

(*Translator's interpolation: Epaminondas had gathered his 'best men' (aristous) into an ad hoc unit, which he led personally.)

Diodorus also has a rather sharper and more hotly-contested struggle than Xenophon, but Diodorus usually has a sharp and hotly-contested struggle in his battle accounts, so it is not clear how far he is describing and how far he is rhetorising.  If there was a sharp struggle preceding the Spartan collapse then we need not deem the Spartans to have the logkhe instead of the doru, but we might wonder how the Thebans would have prevailed if the Spartans were doru-armed.

What stands out is that at Second Mantinea, men who are armed as hoplites are readying the 'logkhe' for action and their leader opens by 'akontizein' ('akontisas' is the 2nd person singular, perfect tense, meaning 'he threw a javelin').  So had Theban hoplites discarded the dora in favour of the logkhe by 362 BC?  And had the Spartans also followed this pattern?

[Imperial Dave]

Interesting thoughts Patrick. I will leave it to others to discuss translations and such like but for me 2 questions seem pertinent:

- if the traditional hoplite spear had been replaced or was in the process of being replaced by a dual purpose javelin, why would Macedon develop and perfect pike armaments and tactics within 20 years of Mantinea? What I mean is that aren't sarissa and small shield armed infantry better suited to fighting and besting traditional hoplites than peltast type armed 'hoplites'?

- and (I do not know the answer to this, merely seeking clarification from others!) what are the grave goods normally associated with greek hoplite warriors for this period in time? Do we see all long spear, all javelin or a mix of both?

[Duncan Head]

While perusing Xenophon's account of the Second Battle of Mantinea (the one in which Epaminondas meets the ferryman) I noticed that prior to the battle Xenophon mentions the Thebans, hoplites and all, sharpening their 'logkhas' and 'makhairas'
....
Logkhas (singular 'logkhe', also 'loncha') were dual-use throwing/thrusting spears optimised for throwing as javelins.  The surprise here is that the hoplites should have been sharpening 'dorata', spears of perhaps 9' length which were standard for the hoplite era.

Xenophon is not usually one to confuse his use of weapon terminology, which leads one to wonder:

1) Has the logkhe replaced the dora as the principal hoplite weapon as of 362 BC?
2) Is the loghke being carried in addition to the doru, and the latter left unmentioned?
3) Is Xenophon using 'logkhe' as a catch-all term for all long pointy sticks in the Theban army?

My money's on option 4. The original meaning of logkhe/longche seems to have been spearhead; Xenophon himself uses it this way in Hunting 10.3:

The javelins (akontia) must be of every variety, the blades (logkhas) broad and keen, and the shafts strong. The spears (probolia) must have blades (logkhas) fifteen inches long, and stout teeth at the middle of the socket, forged in one piece but standing out; and their shafts must be of cornel wood, as thick as a military spear (doratopakheis - thick as a doru).

So I think he's just saying that the Thebans sharpened the blades of their spears. I am not sure in any case that the word acquired its "light spear" usage before the Hellenistic period, and even then I am  not sure that usage was ever universally consistent. Diodoros's "akontisas" then might represent him being misled by this later usage, if his source also used logkhe; or might be the Homeric single-combat imagery he's so fond of.

When, however, he had himself fallen, those who were left proved unable to take full advantage thereafter even of the victory; but although the opposing phalanx had fled before them, their hoplites did not kill a single man or advance beyond the spot where the collision had taken place...

How would Epaminondas die if his foes did not stay to fight?  His demise would have to come about through a missile weapon, suggesting that both sides' hoplites may have been so equipped.

I don't entirely follow this. My reading would be that the enemy fled after the initial clash in which E was struck down, not straight away before contact.

- and (I do not know the answer to this, merely seeking clarification from others!) what are the grave goods normally associated with greek hoplite warriors for this period in time? Do we see all long spear, all javelin or a mix of both?

In general the Greeks at this time did not bury with weapons (though the Macedonians and Thracians were more likely to).

[Patrick Waterson]

So I think he's just saying that the Thebans sharpened the blades of their spears. I am not sure in any case that the word acquired its "light spear" usage before the Hellenistic period, and even then I am  not sure that usage was ever universally consistent. Diodoros's "akontisas" then might represent him being misled by this later usage, if his source also used logkhe; or might be the Homeric single-combat imagery he's so fond of.

Could be, and I hope so.  There is also VII.6.32; when Jason of Pherae is assassinated:

"And when the guardsmen who attended him rushed stoutly to his aid, one of the young men, while still in the act of striking Jason, was pierced with a lance and killed (logkhē plēgeis apothnēskei) ..."

This is the only other use of 'logkhe' in the Hellenica, at least according to the Perseus lexicon.  I am not sure we can understand this one as 'point' rather than weapon.  However a bodyguard carrying a logkhe may not be wholly typical or representative of the armament of his nation's infantry.

How would Epaminondas die if his foes did not stay to fight?  His demise would have to come about through a missile weapon, suggesting that both sides' hoplites may have been so equipped.

I don't entirely follow this. My reading would be that the enemy fled after the initial clash in which E was struck down, not straight away before contact.

Xenophon, unlike Diodorus, gives the impression there was not so much an initial clash as an initial collapse, with Epaminondas somehow collecting his quietus despite the disinclination of his foes to stand.  They melt away and he dies - that is the impression I get from Xenophon.  It does of course make more sense to assume that there was brief resistance at the actual clash and the death of the Spartan commander caused the Spartans to start folding before the demise of Epaminondas halted the Thebans in their tracks.

In essence, it seems to make more sense to read 'logkhas' as 'points' when there is reference to their being sharp or sharpened, though one does rather hope Diodorus was in a Homeric mood rather than following his sources accurately when he has Epaminondas cast his javelin, otherwise we may have to rewrite an army list or two.

Thanks, Duncan.

Interesting thoughts Patrick. I will leave it to others to discuss translations and such like but for me 2 questions seem pertinent:

- if the traditional hoplite spear had been replaced or was in the process of being replaced by a dual purpose javelin, why would Macedon develop and perfect pike armaments and tactics within 20 years of Mantinea? What I mean is that aren't sarissa and small shield armed infantry better suited to fighting and besting traditional hoplites than peltast type armed 'hoplites'?

A point which also occurred to yours truly, as it would leave Iphicrates' reforms somewhat high and dry.  Strictly speaking the sarissa seems to have been the infantry's trump card against lance-armed cavalry while also incidentally being useful against spear-armed infantry.  Naturally, if the Macedonioan phalanx did come up against logkhe-using opponents, keeping the pikes of the rear ranks slanted forwards as per Polybius' later description would catch the vast majority of incoming javelins, rendering them harmless.

I am genuinely puzzled by this one; Duncan may have the answer regarding the sharpened logkhas, though Diodorus' javelin-hurling Epaminondas remains an odd man out.

[Andreas Johansson]

There is also VII.6.32; when Jason of Pherae is assassinated:

"And when the guardsmen who attended him rushed stoutly to his aid, one of the young men, while still in the act of striking Jason, was pierced with a lance and killed (logkhē plēgeis apothnēskei) ..."

This is the only other use of 'logkhe' in the Hellenica, at least according to the Perseus lexicon.  I am not sure we can understand this one as 'point' rather than weapon.

Why not? If you pierce someone with a spear, you normally do so with the the spearhead.

[Patrick Waterson]

I am not sure we can get away with it that easily.  We should find consistent usage, with anyone pierced being impaled by the 'aikhme' or 'logkhe' rather than by a 'doru' or 'akontion'.

In Anabasis I.8.27 Cyrus the Younger is struck under the eye with a javelin:  paionta d' auton akontizei tis paltō hupo ton ophthalmon biaiōs (some one hit him a hard blow under the eye with a javelin).

Here the weapon, not the point, is doing the striking.

[Duncan Head]

There is also VII.6.32; when Jason of Pherae is assassinated:

"And when the guardsmen who attended him rushed stoutly to his aid, one of the young men, while still in the act of striking Jason, was pierced with a lance and killed (logkhē plēgeis apothnēskei) ..."

This is the only other use of 'logkhe' in the Hellenica, at least according to the Perseus lexicon.  I am not sure we can understand this one as 'point' rather than weapon.  However a bodyguard carrying a logkhe may not be wholly typical or representative of the armament of his nation's infantry.

But Thessalian infantry may not have been typically hoplites anyway - cf. the "Thessalian peltasts" article in the Iphicrates... book discussed recently - though to be fair, Jason's guards are a bit more likely to be hoplites than the average Thessalian. Alternatively, javelins or lighter spears might be more useful than longer dorata for guard duty off the battlefield.

[Andreas Johansson]

I am not sure we can get away with it that easily.  We should find consistent usage, with anyone pierced being impaled by the 'aikhme' or 'logkhe' rather than by a 'doru' or 'akontion'.

Well, if you say so; I'm not familiar with Greek pragmatics. I do note other languages don't feel the need for consistency in such matters.

[Jim Webster]

I am not sure we can get away with it that easily.  We should find consistent usage, with anyone pierced being impaled by the 'aikhme' or 'logkhe' rather than by a 'doru' or 'akontion'.

Well, if you say so; I'm not familiar with Greek pragmatics. I do note other languages don't feel the need for consistency in such matters.

Indeed in many languages there is an emphasis on using synonyms and similar words to prevent repetition.
This is actually especially true when a piece is designed to be read aloud.
It's one of the differences between the King James Bible and a more literal translation.
When you're reading work aloud to frequent repetition (except when done as a rhetorical trick) is clumsy and irritating

Jim

[Imperial Dave]

Interesting point (no pun intended!). I hadnt thought about the composition of various texts and trying to avoid repitition of certain words but you are right. Is it possible that use of slightly differing nouns for long pointy things is a poetic/descriptive convention?

[Duncan Head]

Elegant variation is the concept you're discussing, I think.

[Jim Webster]

Yes, interestingly it suggests that in English it is considered a failing.

One issue is that we see texts mainly as a written thing, it wouldn't be an issue if we regarded them as something written, then those who had an issue with the issue would find that they had no issue at all, because the issue of repetition hammers on your ear and in the clumsiness of the flow of words, the issue becomes obvious.



Jim

[Imperial Dave]

by Jove Jim, I think you're right!

Seriously though, and thanks Duncan for pointing out the Wiki reference, I was taught in school to avoid using the same word to describe something twice in the same sentence. Maybe its not quite the same as what is being discussed above but if we, for instance, were describing a dog we were taught to say the 'dog' and then if refered to again in the same sentence as 'it'

[Patrick Waterson]

Alternatively, javelins or lighter spears might be more useful than longer dorata for guard duty off the battlefield.

Very likely: Arrian ( IV.8.8 ) has Alexander seize a logkhe from one of his somatophylakes in order to kill Cleitus, noting that "some say it was a sarissa."  If one imagines the challenge of wielding a sarissa - whether this was meant as the infantry pike or the cavalry lance - within a tent, one can see the appeal of the logkhe specifically for arming personal bodyguards.  Paradoxically, the general Hellenic word for bodyguard was doruphoros, spear-carrier.

On the subject of the logkhe at Second Mantinea, it looks as if between us we can generate sufficient uncertainty to permit continuation of the doru as the primary armament of the mid-4th century BC hoplite.