When did the Picts abandon the chariot?

[Imperial Dave]

Just a general question regarding the Picts (and also by association Scots) and their use of chariots. Chariots are commented as being used at Mons Graupius and also Dio mentions them in use around 209AD. When do we think they eventually are abandoned as a main mode of warfare (ceremonial duties not withstanding)?

[aligern]

Its a question of who the Picts are, Dave. The combatants at Mons Graupius are thought to be the Caledones and Maeatae who are dominant in central Scotland at the time.nThese are then ground down by the Romans to the South and the Picts to the North. :-))
Roy

[aligern]

http://scotshistoryonline.co.uk/pictish-chariot.html
The above link has an example of a Pictish cart. Now a cart with an awning is not evidence for chariot warfare.  If you accept the author's analogy with Irish culture then we might have Pictish chariots into the fifth century, depending upon whether you believe the Tain literature represents conditions near to the time of its writing or maybe it is reflecting legend from much farther back?

Direct evidence for Pictish chariots would appear to be none.

Roy

[Mark G]

Folk up here can get a bit snooty about confusing picts with caledonians (and all the others), so have a care on your search terms too.

Of course, to really annoy them, start talking about north british !

[Duncan Head]

The Meigle no. 10 stone, the one with the canopied cart, is illustrated at http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/391002/. As Roy suggests, it isn't a chariot.

[Erpingham]

The Meigle no. 10 stone, the one with the canopied cart, is illustrated at http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/391002/. As Roy suggests, it isn't a chariot.

Chariot is an odd word in that we, with our military history interest, think of it as a weapon of war but it can also mean a light traveling cart.  This appears to be one of the latter.

Who we are counting as Picts does seem a key question here, as has been stated.

[Mick Hession]

One school of thought has the Picts as a confederacy or amalgamation of various population groups, including the Caledones and Maeatae (and probably Attecoti) - a 7th century Irish source refers to the 7 kingdoms of the Picts, which supports that interpretation; it's notable that Germanic tribes on the fringes of the Roman empire tended to coalesce into larger political groupings like the Alamanni around the same time, and probably for similar reasons.   

The earliest extant versions of the Red Branch poetry cycle - including the Tain - date from much later, but (apart from later interpolations like Cuchulainn's scythed chariot) its descriptions of chariot warfare are very much of the "battle taxi" variety - heroes are borne to battle in the vehicle but usually fight on foot. The poems imply that the chariot frame was lightweight.           

Cheers
Mick

[Imperial Dave]

Yes probably deserve a small slap on the wrists for terminology faux pas. I will use the term Pict to loosely include former Caledones etc as pointed out as I am interested in when the chariots fell out of favour which if we accept Dio is sometime after the 3rd Century and so Pict is a general terms for that ugly lot north of the border used by Romans moaning about a lack of socks. Also happy to include Scots as a separate but geographically and culturally connected people who used chariots too

[Mick Hession]

The latest chariot reference I have found dates to the 1st half of the 6th century, where an elderly Irish king used one to ride to battle (and to flee from it - he lost), though he is specifically mentioned as dismounting from it for the battle itself.

The account suggests to me that chariot use had largely died out by the end of the 5th century in Ireland, which timeline fits with other significant changes in Irish society and political geography. 

Cheers
Mick

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks Mick, useful info.

I am assuming (big assumption here) that Irish sub groups that migrated across the Irish Sea to the West coast of Wales and Northern Britain may not have 'brought' chariots with them? I cant find any mention of chariots beyond the Roman sources generically

[Mick Hession]

I'd say that's a fair assumption. My own view is that chariot use was associated with an earlier, more aristocratic style of warfare - the hero rode about in his chariot showing off while the plebs stood at the back cheering. Accounts relating to the 5th century (written down much later) suggest that the bands that raided/settled in Britain were a more businesslike lot; certainly the kings of both Munster and Leinster claimed to be descended from kings who returned to Ireland from Britain to conquer. 

Cheers
Mick

[Imperial Dave]

thanks Mick.

Certainly the sub Irish kingdom of Brecheiniog may have found it difficult to utilise chariots to their fullest since the kingdom is a tad mountainous Having said that there is still plenty of rolling hillsides around the area but as you say the 'invading' bands may have been out for plunder originally and then settled at a later date (sans aristocratic chariotry)

[Erpingham]

So, it looks like we are saying that the Picts (who were not actually Picts yet) used chariots up to the 3rd century as part of their general armoury.  However, they disappeared thereafter, possibly being retained as a prestige item to transport army leaders?  Incidentally, Mick's description of the elderly Irish king and his chariot could refer to a traveling vehicle as illustrated in the Meigle 10 stone, rather than a full-on battle chariot.  Both Irish and Ancient British fighting chariots as described seem to have needed a fair bit of agility to use, which may not have suited an elderly man.

Incidentally, there is an interesting parallel for a transport vehicle for the general surviving into the sixth century in the semi-legendary Scandinavian battle of Bravellir (or Bravik) where Harald Wartooth, who was very old, used one.

From a wargames point of view, how should such a transport be represented? 

[Imperial Dave]

So, it looks like we are saying that the Picts (who were not actually Picts yet) used chariots up to the 3rd century as part of their general armoury.  However, they disappeared thereafter, possibly being retained as a prestige item to transport army leaders?

sounds plausible in respect of the prestige retention.

Would we say that contact with the Romans accelerated the change to cavalry from chariots per se or that it was happening anyway (if we take the parallel Gaulish abandonment of the chariot on the continent albeit earlier) 

[Jim Webster]

So, it looks like we are saying that the Picts (who were not actually Picts yet) used chariots up to the 3rd century as part of their general armoury.  However, they disappeared thereafter, possibly being retained as a prestige item to transport army leaders?  Incidentally, Mick's description of the elderly Irish king and his chariot could refer to a traveling vehicle as illustrated in the Meigle 10 stone, rather than a full-on battle chariot.  Both Irish and Ancient British fighting chariots as described seem to have needed a fair bit of agility to use, which may not have suited an elderly man.

Incidentally, there is an interesting parallel for a transport vehicle for the general surviving into the sixth century in the semi-legendary Scandinavian battle of Bravellir (or Bravik) where Harald Wartooth, who was very old, used one.

From a wargames point of view, how should such a transport be represented?

Looking at the transport side of it, I think you'd look at how the rules cover things like sacred banners mounted on carts and suchlike.
In reality you've got the great man in his cart and doubtless he has a bunch of bodyguards with him as well. There again Brian Boru doesn't seem to have been particularly well guarded

Jim