Carduchians

[Mark G]

Just skimming through the anabasis,
Those kurdish bows sound mean. Feet needed to get purchase on the draw.
Arrows long enough to be thrown back as javelins. Penetrating hoplite shield and cuirass.

I've never seen them on a table or list, but surely a potential ally for Armenians and Persians and sassanids.

[Duncan Head]

The bows don't seem to get mentioned after Xenophon, oddly. The Carduchi become the kingdom of Corduene or Gordyene:

Near the Tigris lie the places belonging to the Gordyaeans, whom the ancients called Carduchians; and their cities are named Sareisa and Satalca and Pinaca, a very powerful fortress, with three citadels, each enclosed by a separate fortification of its own, so that they constitute, as it were, a triple city. But still it not only was held in subjection by the king of the Armenians, but the Romans took it by force, although the Gordyaeans had an exceptional repute as master-builders and as experts in the construction of siege engines; and it was for this reason that Tigranes used them in such work.

[Jim Webster]

The fact that they seem to have engineering competence seems to indicate that they were 'barbarians' only in the fact that they did not speak Greek

Jim

[Mark G]

So perhaps no one believed xenophon about the power of these bows.

[Patrick Waterson]

The fact that they seem to have engineering competence seems to indicate that they were 'barbarians' only in the fact that they did not speak Greek

Jim

For a Greek, this was the quintessential definition of a barbarian!

The Carduchians as encountered by Xenophon were vigorously independence-minded, and vassals of the Achaemenids in name only (Xenophon in Anabasis IV.1 refers to them as 'enemies of the King').  The large bows (and arrows) may have been a feature of their mountain environment, with winds being a feature of life and heavier missiles being less deflected by gusts and breezes.  That said, Xenophon found his own Cretans 'very useful' despite the weather.

He also mentions the Carduchians as having bows (4-5 feet long with 3-foot arrows) and slings, but nothing else - apart from boulders rolled down mountainsides.  These people evidently specialised in missile work and the Greek response was to a) keep chasing them off and b) occupy key heights along the route.

[Dave Beatty]

Do you think Carduchians are related to the Kardakes of Issus fame?  The armament seems a bit off...

[Mark G]

No.
My translation identified them with Kurds though.

[Patrick Waterson]

Kardakes (Persian: 'The Brave') seem to have been traditional Persian infantry of the Achaemenid spear-and-bow persuasion.  To my mind, this fits well with the description of Alexander accelerating the speed of his attack to avoid 'damage' from 'the Persian archers'.

Others have attempted to interpret kardakes as imitiation hoplites, peltasts or both.

Carduchians, as Mark says, seem to be ancestral Kurds.  We also meet them as Gordyenians during the Roman Empire period, or at least that is the general consensus.

[Duncan Head]

Do you think Carduchians are related to the Kardakes of Issus fame?  The armament seems a bit off...

It has been suggested. Olmstead quotes, I think, a Babylonian document recording "Lukshu the Kardaka" receiving rations at a very early date, well before we hear of "kardakes" in any of the written sources; and he thought that "kardaka" in this case was equivalent to Kardouchian. In general it looks an unlikely equation, but there's the chance that the two names were similar enough to be occasionally confused.

[Jim Webster]

Do you think Carduchians are related to the Kardakes of Issus fame?  The armament seems a bit off...

It has been suggested. Olmstead quotes, I think, a Babylonian document recording "Lukshu the Kardaka" receiving rations at a very early date, well before we hear of "kardakes" in any of the written sources; and he thought that "kardaka" in this case was equivalent to Kardouchian. In general it looks an unlikely equation, but there's the chance that the two names were similar enough to be occasionally confused.

I suppose it's also possible that Carduchians were settled in the area as military settlers. (So potentially having Carduchian Kardaka who'd never seen  Corduene    )