Battlefield signalling

[Patrick Waterson]

This seems to me a very complex signal to be produced by horn playing, unless it is "Go to standing order no.3" or such like.  Unless the highlighted phrase pronuntiari iubet implies a musical signal, might this be better seen as passing an order by word of mouth?

This may in fact be how it was done: I was put in mind of Gauls spreading news by shouting from one field to another (cannot find the reference  ), which might suggest that they had the kind of enhanced parade-ground voices which could repeat an order throughout a comparatively small (no more than 15,000 at most) army in a fairly short time.

It might thus be that all Ambiorix has to shout and have uttered through the ranks is 'Plan B Bonny Lads!'. It must also be that this method is a drill because it is being carried out by Gallic units retreating and advancing upon an order.

Essentially we seem to be heading towards very similar conclusions.  Hopefully this is a case of great minds thinking alike ...

[Jim Webster]

This may in fact be how it was done: I was put in mind of Gauls spreading news by shouting from one field to another (cannot find the reference  ), which might suggest that they had the kind of enhanced parade-ground voices which could repeat an order throughout a comparatively small (no more than 15,000 at most) army in a fairly short time.

Remember the density of people working on the land would probably be quite high and they wouldn't have to shout very loud and almost certainly wouldn't need anything like the Silbo gomero

I remember the quote and at the time I assumed that it was a mixture of shouting news and nipping across to the boundary and telling them

I think the point is not that they have loud voices but that there's an awful lot of them and they're terrible gossips 

[Duncan Head]

This may in fact be how it was done: I was put in mind of Gauls spreading news by shouting from one field to another (cannot find the reference  )

Caesar, Gallic War VII.3: "The report is quickly spread among all the states of Gaul; for, whenever a more important and remarkable event takes place, they transmit the intelligence through their lands [fields?] and districts [villages? boundaries?] by a shout (clamore per agros regionesque significant); the others take it up in succession, and pass it to their neighbors, as happened on this occasion; for the things which were done at Genabum at sunrise, were heard in the territories of the Arverni before the end of the first watch, which is an extent of more than a hundred and sixty miles."

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks, Duncan.  Knew it had to be there somewhere.

As a means of spreading word quickly, it would seem useful, given its approximately 13.5 miles per hour omnidirectionality.  Whether the order to revert to skirmishing tactics was given by Gallic male voice choir or some other means, its transmission in battle, even if during a relative lull, would seem to imply a signal as opposed to a discussion during a tea-break.

[Dangun]

As a means of spreading word quickly, it would seem useful, given its approximately 13.5 miles per hour omnidirectionality. 

Skepticism may be useful here.
Over any significant distance that's faster than either people or horses, and therefore untestable at the time.

[Erpingham]

Can we return to the original order for a moment

Ambiorix, when he observed this, ordered the command to be issued [pronuntiari iubet] that they throw their weapons from a distance and do not approach too near, and in whatever direction the Romans should make an attack, there give way (from the lightness of their appointments and from their daily practice no damage could be done them); [but] pursue them when betaking themselves to their standards again.

The complexity of message would stretch the most competent message passer (my inner Douglas Adams wants to refer to these as Chief Shouting Officers but I will resist).  Returning to Roys suggestion, is what is shouted "Switch to back up plan" or that this style of combat is well known to the tribes and you shout "southern style" or some such and everyone knows what you mean?  I'm trying to reach for the level of order change we might get from a signal, as opposed to an "O" group.

[Patrick Waterson]

The complexity of message would stretch the most competent message passer ...  Returning to Roy's suggestion, is what is shouted "Switch to back up plan" or that this style of combat is well known to the tribes and you shout "southern style" or some such and everyone knows what you mean?  I'm trying to reach for the level of order change we might get from a signal, as opposed to an "O" group.

Caesar seem to be describing the result as opposed to transcribing the message itself.  One can speculate regarding the actual content, though it would have to include a) stop what you are doing and b) start doing what you have been trained to do.  As Caesar reckons the Eburones had been 'trained by daily practice to execute such manoeuvres' there would have been a specific term involved, dedicated daily activities almost invariably generating their own jargon, so something along the lines of: 'Fall back, start toulegeton' would suffice.  (Inclusion of: 'You dozy b*st*rds' optional.)

As a means of spreading word quickly, it would seem useful, given its approximately 13.5 miles per hour omnidirectionality. 

Skepticism may be useful here.
Over any significant distance that's faster than either people or horses, and therefore untestable at the time.

Verification of actual distance covered has perforce to be retrospective, a bit like measuring faster-than-light travel, but need be no less accurate on that account.  Dawn and nightfall provide the measurement parameters (for Gallic news transmission as opposed to FTL travel) so retrospective verification is not a problem.

[Dangun]

Maybe.

But it sounds like an overly precise anecdote.
It might more accurately read - word of mouth spread surprisingly fast. But that fast? mmm...

[Jim Webster]

Maybe.

But it sounds like an overly precise anecdote.
It might more accurately read - word of mouth spread surprisingly fast. But that fast? mmm...

Wearing my freelance journalist hat it's the sort of anecdote that people like. It's the sort they remember because they can visualise it and they can take away the message.

Someone, somewhere made the initial report which might even have been correct, but there may have been special circumstances which dropped out of the tale because they didn't improve it or weren't thought to be necessary.
If you treat these stories as a guide to what people felt could be possible when everything was going right they're useful.
But they're difficult to use as the foundations of any sort of study of communications. For example how fast would word travel in January?

Jim

[Erpingham]

In the current context, the question is would a similar method be used, and work on, battlefield?  The implication of the piece is that shouting over distance was a practiced skill.  Against this, the premodern countryside was much quieter than a battlefield and both shouters and hearers might be more distracted in combat.  The original story does not imply sudden change in a way one might get from an advance or retire signal, so may have been used in a lull to change plans (which would have the advantage of less background noise).

[aligern]

In defence of the shouted and repeated message may I point out thatI suggested that the change takes place in a lull in the fighting. The Eburones have had a go and been trown back with casualties. That is a quiet moment when Ambiorix can decide on plan B and the message can be transmitted and absorbed.
Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

Here is a You Tube video (more of a slideshow with background noise) recording the sounds made by a man blowing a carnyx.  The instrument has a surprisingly varied repertoire and could carry well above the sounds of battle.  Some voices are also included, but the background sound effects are rather token and do not give any idea of the actual volume of a fight with thousands of men on each side.

Whether the Eburones passed on the change in tactics by instrument, voice or a combination of instruments calling attention to and being followed by vocal instructions, the event would seem to count as a battlefield signal.

Caesar unfortunately does not detail his opponents' signalling arrangements,and pays only cursory attention to his own.  Even so, he is one of our best sources on signalling in action.

[Erpingham]

Here is a You Tube video (more of a slideshow with background noise) recording the sounds made by a man blowing a carnyx.  The instrument has a surprisingly varied repertoire and could carry well above the sounds of battle. 

I have to say, I was more persuaded by the theory that the carnyx was used to make an awful racket to terrify the enemy after hearing that

But I did look up the Lur, which is a much more capable instrument - listen to the examples given on this page for example  (you can find entire CDs of them on the internet)

http://abel.hive.no/trompet/lur/bronze/


However, does capability mean use?  Did Bronze Age Scandinavian forces have complex military signals because modern musicians can play modern army bugle calls on the lur?

[Nick Harbud]

Unfortunately games that boil down to "line up and kill whatever is in front of you" tend to make for a boring gaming experience, especially when you consider that wargamers fight far more battles than any historical general ever did. Most successful rules therefore grant unrealistic levels of control to players to generate the decision points that make the gaming experience interesting.

What do mean boring?  This is my normal tactic with the sort of hairy armies I end up with and it is not at all boring for me, although my opponent occasionally finds it distressing that his really expensive troops types, who brushed off the first wave of riff-raff, get soundly thrashed by the second or third wave. 

Recreating an historical level of troop control is simple.  I normally find that several pints of pre-match lager does the trick!

Unfortunately most modern rules no longer support this tactic, because they insist the army should pack up and go home once a third of its number (ie, the first wave) has been destroyed. 

[Andreas Johansson]

However, does capability mean use?  Did Bronze Age Scandinavian forces have complex military signals because modern musicians can play modern army bugle calls on the lur?

The relevant evidence consists of roughly executed rock carvings of people apparently playing the things. I'm not sure there's even any clearly associating them with combat.

The usual guess seems to be that they served a cultic purpose, but then "probably served a cultic purpose" tends to be archaeologists' first guess for anything not obviously meant for something else.