Sizeable Bronze Age battle in northern Germany

[Jim Webster]

With Homeric we'd need rules for chariots. There were horses at Tollense, were they ridden or were they chariot horses? It's just that the chariot and horse harness might have been salvaged

I've not played a lot of Saga but could see it as being a good place to start from

[Erpingham]

As I understand it, the Tollense battlefield has a boggy river valley with meandering river crossed by a causeway.  Not ideal territory for deploying chariots, even if you have them to hand. 

As for the Homeric, it may give us a model of "Big Man" and followers which we could build a Saga force around.  Perhaps at Tollense, the leaders might mount their mighty Icelandic ponies, rather than their Homeric chariots?

[eques]

Sorry, should have clarified, the article I was praising was Robert's in Slingshot, about the Trojan War (although I enjoyed the one about Tollense as well!)

Homeric would work great with Skirmish Games - the 2 I play are Lion Rampant and Of Gods and Mortals.

[Patrick Waterson]

I only know the basics of Saga.  Would they make a good set for Bronze Age warfare, with a bit of imagination?

That'll be down to what you think Bronze Age warfare was like!

Hence the imagination

What if we imagine it was like Homeric warfare? While that takes some speculation at least we have somewhere to start.

Would it be an idea to outline what we mean (or think we mean) by Homeric warfare?  Common ground for a starting point and all that ...

[Tim]

Patrick

You might have to set up a whole new forum to record all the opinions and 'evidence' in support of a common definition of 'Homeric warfare'...

[eques]

Would it be an idea to outline what we mean (or think we mean) by Homeric warfare?  Common ground for a starting point and all that ...

Bronze Aged Aegean?

[Jim Webster]

Problem is it has meant different things at different periods. Alexander the Great didn't sleep with a copy by his bed because he felt it was just about spear throwing heroes in chariots 

[Patrick Waterson]

Patrick

You might have to set up a whole new forum to record all the opinions and 'evidence' in support of a common definition of 'Homeric warfare'...

Hence the question.

We may also want to think about what stage of the fighting is represented by the assembled bodies: are they the slain from a sanguinary struggle on the actual battlefield or the losses from a pursuit which caught a fleeing foe attempting to struggle across a river, in which case the actual battle might have been fought on higher and drier ground?

If the remains are from a pursuit, or at least pressure on a rout, it presumably implies massed combat between bodies of men, perhaps formations, as opposed to everyone-stop-and-cheer-the champions.  Or do we conclude that upon the fall of champions the lower ranks broke and ran to be gleefully butchered by their opposite numbers?

The presence of equine skeletal material suggests cavalry or possibly chariotry.  Dead horses are more likely to result from a battle than a pursuit unless the said deceased equids broke legs in animal burrows or similarly suffered severe mishap in a slippery riverbank environment.  Hence this point also may be inconclusive.

What might be enlightening could be to widen the search a little and see if any suitable battlefield adjoins the river valley.  We could then make inspired guesses about whether the loser had suffered an Argentoratum, being tumbled back to the river and slaughtered in its vicinity, or, if the river valley is the only viable battlefield, whether one side learned the hard way about the drawbacks of fighting your way across a water obstacle in the teeth of the enemy.

It is conceivable that the Oera Linda Book may throw some light on this engagement, or at least its context.  Source here.  First a bit of scene-setting, albeit not fully explanatory.

"The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds. They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda's spirit they know nothing. They have weapons of stone, the Magyars of copper. The Magyars affirm that they can exorcise and recall the evil spirits, and this frightens the people, so that you never see a cheerful face. When they were well established, the Magyars sought our friendship, they praised our language and customs, our cattle and iron weapons, which they would willingly have exchanged for their gold and silver ornaments, and they always kept their people within their own boundaries, and that outwitted our watchfulness."

The Frisians were then surprised by an invasion.  Apparently the land invaded was Scandinavia.

"Eighty years afterwards, just at the time of the Juulfeest, they overran our country like a snowstorm driven by the wind. All who could not flee away were killed. Frya was appealed to, but the Schoonlanders (Scandinavians) had neglected her advice. Then all the forces were assembled, and three hours from Godasburgt they were withstood, but war continued. Kat or Katerine was the name of the priestess who was Burgtmaagd of Godasburgt. Kat was proud and haughty, and would neither seek counsel nor aid from the mother; but when the Burgtheeren (citizens) knew this, they themselves sent messengers to Texland to the Eeremoeder. Minna—this was the name of the mother—summoned all the sailors and the young men from Oostflyland and Denmark."

A counterattack was planned, and with it cam a subsequently famous name.

"From this expedition the history of Wodin sprang, which is inscribed on the citadels, and is here copied. At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude. When the young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin to be their leader or king, and the naval force chose Teunis for their sea-king and Inka for their admiral. The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin and his valiant host."

The Frisians were based in Western and Northern Europe at the time.

"The wind was fair, so they arrived immediately in Schoonland. When the northern brothers met together, Wodin divided his powerful army into three bodies. Frya was their war-cry, and they drove back the Finns and Magyars like children. When the Magy heard how his forces had been utterly defeated, he sent messengers with truncheon and crown, who said to Wodin: O almighty king we are guilty, but all that we have done was done from necessity. You think that we attacked your brothers out of ill will, but we were driven out by our enemies, who are still at our heels. We have often asked your Burgtmaagd for help, but she took no notice of us. The Magy says that if we kill half our numbers in fighting with each other, then the wild shepherds will come and kill all the rest. The Magy possesses great riches, but he has seen that Frya is much more powerful than all our spirits together. He will lay down his head in her lap. You are the most warlike king on the earth, and your people are of iron. Become our king, and we will all be your slaves. What glory it would be for you if you could drive back the savages! Our trumpets would resound with your praises, and the fame of your deeds would precede you everywhere. Wodin was strong, fierce, and warlike, but he was not clear-sighted, therefore he was taken in their toils, and crowned by the Magy."

The archetypal deceit employed by a cynical manipulator upon a valiant but naive warrior is a key element in many tales, including the Mahabharat, but may yet have been true.  What we see in this account is a victorious campaign by warriors assembled from northern Europe to clear Finnic peoples out of Scandinavia, a situation which appears to be more or less reflected in the ethnicity of the participants at Tollense.

"Very many of the sailors and soldiers to whom this proceeding was displeasing went away secretly, taking Kat with them. But Kat, who did not wish to appear before either the mother or the general assembly, jumped overboard. Then a storm arose and drove the ships upon the banks of Denmark, with the total destruction of their crews. This strait was afterwards called the Kattegat. When Wodin was crowned, he attacked the savages, who were all horsemen, and fell upon Wodin's troops like a hailstorm; but like a whirlwind they were turned back, and did not dare to appear again. When Wodin returned, Magy gave him his daughter to wife. Whereupon he was incensed with herbs; but they were magic herbs, and by degrees he became so audacious that he dared to disavow and ridicule the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda, while he bent his free head before the false and deceitful images."

This campaign was also successful, but there are more ways of conquering than by armed force.

"His reign lasted seven years, and then he disappeared. The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods and still reigned over us, but our people laughed at what they said. When Wodin had disappeared some time, disputes arose. We wished to choose another king, but the Magy would not permit it. He asserted that it was his right given him by his idols. But besides this dispute there was one between the Magyars and Finns, who would honour neither Frya nor Wodin; but the Magy did just as he pleased, because his daughter had a son by Wodin, and he would have it that this son was of high descent. While all were disputing and quarrelling, he crowned the boy as king, and set up himself as guardian and counsellor. Those who cared more for themselves than for justice let him work his own way, but the good men took their departure. Many Magyars fled back with their troops, and the sea-people took ship, accompanied by a body of stalwart Finns as rowers."

And so the reconquest ultimately had an unhappy ending.  It might however provide the context for the Tollense engagement, and if so, would mean one side had a 'Germanic' army and the other a tribal assemblage from Eastern Europe with a significant mounted component.

[Erpingham]

I deliberately used the term Homeric Warfare because we could focus on warfare as described by Homer, in the hope of giving us a conceptual model of organisation and practice of war in the late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age.  This is later than Tollense but closest in time and space for something we have a description of, as opposed to simply the archaeological evidence.  If we want to talk about Bronze Age Aegean warfare, we would need to unpick Homer to try and work out which descriptions belonged to that period and where they are appropriate to.  There is also a danger we would bog down in an argument about chronologies.  So, if folks want to do that, I think it deserves a thread all of its own.

[Erpingham]

It is conceivable that the Oera Linda Book may throw some light on this engagement, or at least its context.

Great, then we can move on to Ossian and what he tells us about Dark Age Scotland

[eques]

I certainly wouldn't count Northern Europe as "Homeric".  That would be like calling the Chinese Jin Dynasty "Arthurian"

The Aegean world is surely very very integral to Homer and his characters.

[Erpingham]

I certainly wouldn't count Northern Europe as "Homeric".  That would be like calling the Chinese Jin Dynasty "Arthurian"

The Aegean world is surely very very integral to Homer and his characters.

Interesting you see such a huge difference Harry.  What model of military/social organisation would you go for as more fitted to the Northern European Bronze Age?

[Jim Webster]

A Aegean warlord probably needed more capital, he had a ship to buy as well as arming his warriors.

[Erpingham]

A Aegean warlord probably needed more capital, he had a ship to buy as well as arming his warriors.

Fair point.  Bronze Age northern boats seem to be either log boats (or log and plank) or frame boats as shown in Scandinavian art.  So a coastal warlord may have to have boats but smaller ones.  Assuming we are OK with the concept of warlords and warriors as a basis for wargaming the Northern Bronze Age, of course.

[Andreas Johansson]

A Aegean warlord probably needed more capital, he had a ship to buy as well as arming his warriors.

As I understand it, late Bronze Age northern Germany is culturally closer to Scandinavia than to neighbouring regions to the south. Consider frex this map from Wikipedia. Apart from suggesting that any southerners at Tollense would be genuine outsiders, this presumably implies a good deal of maritime trafic across the Baltic.

(By "culturally" I here of course intend in the archaeological sense; material culture.)