Goliath's Kidun

[Jim Webster]

If you are writing this up Dave, it might work well as a two part article:
- the first part covering the geography, history, sources (both ancient and modern) and likely or known troop types
- the second containing sections from each of those who responded on their interpretation of the evidence and its translation to the table top battlefield.

Great advice, I'll take it as guidance for the articles. I'm also working on a paper entitled "An Analysis of Biblical Military Terms" that is basically an exegesis of every military word (weapons, organization, military ranks, etc) in the Bible.... which is rapidly turning into a massive work approaching book-length. I'll put a synopsis into article form for Slingshot...

Only book length!

What do you make of the weapons Goliath was equipped with, because I believe there's been controversy for several thousand years over them :-)

[Patrick Waterson]

More power to your exegesis, Dave.  I look forward to the article.

And to whatever Goliath's 'kidun' turns out to be ...

[Jim Webster]

More power to your exegesis, Dave.  I look forward to the article.

And to whatever Goliath's 'kidun' turns out to be ...

I read one article which reckoned that the word had been lost to Hebrew by 500BC and it's puzzled Jewish Scholars ever since.

[Patrick Waterson]

It does seem a puzzle: Goliath already has a sword (chrb) and a spear (chnith), so if kidun is a shield why not tzne as in I Samuel 17:7?  (Incidentally, Goliath does not have a kidun there).  If a javelin or similar, why not a chnith as in I Samuel 20:33 or even a rmch as in II Chronicles 11:12?  I am beginning to wonder if it is a weapon at all, or whether it represented a boast or even a rude word ...

"Thou comest to me with a sword (chrb), and a spear (chnith), and a vaunt (kidun), but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of Hosts ..." (I Sam 17:45)

I shall leave it to Tim to suggest that kidun might be a small cat ...

[Duncan Head]

Jeff Zorn's article suggests, tentatively, that the kîdôn might be a sickle-sword.

[Jim Webster]

Jeff Zorn's article suggests, tentatively, that the kîdôn might be a sickle-sword.

That explanation hung together for me, because it seemed to explain why the word had been lost as the sword had dropped from use

[Patrick Waterson]

Although it does not explain why when David used Goliath's sword to cut off his head he used the ordinary chrb, assuming a sickle-sword to be a better cutter, at least for decapitating purposes.

If it is a weapon, I would be more inclined to see it as a dagger, like the Egyptian snn.  Sword and dagger make a set: sword and sickle-sword do not.  The dagger does not seem to be a Hebrew cultural weapon until the 1st century AD - unless Dave has turned up a term for dagger in his searches?

The only occurrence of 'dagger' in my Concordance is in Judges 3:16-22, in which Ehud makes a chrb of 'two edges and dwarf length' (shni phiuth gmd ark.e), so it looks as if chrb did double-duty for sword and dagger-type weapons.  One may note incidentally that when Ehud stabbed his target (King Eglon of Moab) in the belly, "the fat closed in over the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly," a phenomenon duplicated in some modern stabbings.  Ehud made the weapon specially for the occasion, which implies that daggers were not a normal part of Hebrew cultural weaponry.

If there is anything to this line of reasoning, or at least conjecture, it would suggest that kidun (kîdôn) might be a dagger, and also a loan-word from whatever language was spoken by the Philistines.  One looks with interest to the ongoing excavations at Gath in the hope they might turn up an archive.

[Duncan Head]

... it looks as if chrb did double-duty for sword and dagger-type weapons.

So chrb equates to jian, whilst kîdôn may mean dao? 

[Mark G]

A scan of yadin may revel some images of weapon combinations that could be helpful.

[Patrick Waterson]

So chrb equates to jian, whilst kîdôn may mean dao? 

An interesting double-edged/single-edged thought, although on reflection I suspect maybe not, otherwise David would presumably have used the kîdôn to lop off Goliath's head rather than using the chrb (which incidentally he took as a trophy and subsequently put to use after he fell out with Saul).  Also, I have some difficulty envisaging a warrior of Gath wielding spear, shield and two swords.  We might be able to deduct the shield if it was carried into battle before him, although when he faces David there is no mention of a shield-bearer.  Spear, shield, sword and dagger might not be the Four Major Weapons of Chinese fame but they somehow seem fitting in a Mediterranean context.

Chrb is only occasionally qualified by phiuth (two-edged), e.g. Proverbs 5:4, and there is reference in Psalm 149:6 to a chrb phipiuth, apparently a serrated sword, if the Interlinear Scripture Analayser literal translation is correct.  It is thus possible that an unqualified chrb may signify, or at least include, single-edged bladed weaponry.  In Exodus 18:4, Moses' son Eliezer is named to commemorate divine deliverance from the sword of Pharaoh (chrb phroe), which may or may not signify that an Egyptian 'sword' qualifies for the term chrb (one suspects that 'sword' here is metaphorical, signifying deadly intent - Moses perhaps faced execution for killing the Egyptian taskmaster - though it may be indicative that chrb is used in such a sense rather than, say, kîdôn).

I would like the kîdôn to be a single-edged khepesh-like sword, but do not quite see how it would fit into general Hebrew usage or for that matter the Philistine panoply, which we presumably assume to be more or less in line with Mediterranean tradition.

Another aspect of the kîdôn in I Samuel 17:6, which might undermine the dagger hypothesis, is that it is carried bin kthphi.u, i.e. between the shoulders.  Also, it is made of nchshth, presumably bronze, which rather disqualifies it as a boast or epithet.   A weapon carried between the shoulders suggests a two-handed sword or an axe.  A two-handed sword would presumably still be a chrb, cf. the weaponry of the cherubim in Genesis 3:24 and of Yahweh himself in Deuteronomy 32:41, unless being single-edged really was a sufficiently important distinction to require what looks like a loan word to describe the concept.

The Hebrew axe of the period, qrdm, was a woodcutting implement and apparently not used in warfare (when the Hebrews were under Philistine rule in I Samuel 13:19-22, they were not allowed sword or spear but were permitted axes).  If Goliath was carrying a Philistine war-axe, the Hebrew account would probably have needed a loan word to describe it.  Then again, if it was an axe, it was presumably too unwieldy for David to use when shortening his fallen opponent by a head, especially if Goliath needed to carry it between his shoulders rather than at his belt.

The final possibility that occurs to me is a two-handed club or mace, presumably the latter as a club would presumably not be made of bronze, although it could be sheathed in and/or bound by same.  I can find no reference to either club or mace in the Old Testament, unless kîdôn is our only example.

[Chuck the Grey]

Just a thought. In modern Hebrew kidon is translated as bayonet or "tip of the spear." Modern usage might give an indication as to older usage.

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks Chuck, that could be a useful pointer, albeit 'trident', 'rapier', 'blowpipe' etc. do not necessarily convey the original meaning.

Let us nevertheless assume that kidon as a bayonet is derived from earlier use of kidon as something pointed and at the end of a shaft.  One would still wonder about it being carried between the shoulders.  The mind flits to a quiver of javelins, but 'kidon' is singular rather than plural.

What we know about the kidon (from I Samuel 17:6) is:

1) It is not a spear, sword or shield.  (Goliath already has these.)

2) It is carried between the shoulders.

3) It is made, wholly or substantially, of bronze.

The question about the current use of kidon as bayonet or spear-tip (cf. Greek aikhme)  is whether this has carried through its meaning from Biblical times or whether its meaning has been inferred and then inserted into modern Hebrew.  I have some reservations about modern Hebrew meanings because when attempting chrb (sword) on a modern online translator it gave 'rabbi' while chnith (spear) gave 'priestly' or 'as Anita'(!)

Is there any way we could find out more about this?  Would anyone know what weapon terms are used in the War Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

[Dave Beatty]

More power to your exegesis, Dave.  I look forward to the article.

And to whatever Goliath's 'kidun' turns out to be ...

kidun is Strong's 3591, kiydown from the root 3589 kiyd to strike or to crush. So it was something to strike or crush with, apparently smaller than chaniyth (Strong's 2595) a lance used with a thrusting motion like raising a tent, itself from chanah (Strong's 2583) to pitch a tent. Some scholars hold that kiydown would be something like a dart or small javelin; hence most translations use it for javelin.
1 Samuel 20:33 specifically notes that Saul threw his chaniyth at David - so it would appear that Saul threw a spear vice a javelin which might better explain how David was able to dodge it so handily. Although many translations render chaniyth as javelin just to complicate matters.
2 Chronicles 11:12 uses the word romach (Strong's 7420) from a root word meaning to throw but especially a weapon with an iron point. In Numbers 25:7, Phineas uses a romach to pierce an Israelite and his Midianite concubine. In Joshua 8:18 he holds his kiydown aloft to signal the attack of the ambush behind Ai. Joshua held his kiydown aloft for quite some time, until the town was sacked and burned and all 12,000 inhabitants were killed so it could not have been a very heavy weapon.
Note also that Goliath's kiydown was apparently smaller than his chaniyth which had a point of bronze weighing 600 shekels - although his  kiydown was bronze its weight was unremarkable. Also, as was noted above, in 1 Samuel 17:45, Goliath's weapons are listed as chereb (cutting implement i.e. sword), chaniyth (spear) and kiydown (javelin?) so there is a notable difference between what the latter two looked like and what they were used for.   kiydown differs from the macca of Job 41:26 (dart or arrow), and of towthach of Job 41:29 (mace or club although some translations call this a dart).
kiydown appears in 9 places in Scripture: Joshua 8:18, Joshua 8:26, 1Samuel 17:6, 1 Samuel 17:45, Job 39:23, Job 41:21,  Jeremiah 6:23 and Jeremiah 50:42. In Job 39:23 and Jeremiah 6:23 kiydown appears in conjunction with quiver or bow; this may have some significance relative to its size or utility. It is probably (certainly?) not used as an arrow fitted to a bow; that term is chet and clearly different in utility to kiydown.

So I tend to believe that kiydown was a light spear, javelin or large dart that Goliath might logically carry on his back, perhaps in a quiver. As to shield bearers, 1 Samuel 17:41 is quite clear; "Meanwhile, the Philistine, with his shield bearer in front of him, kept coming closer to David." Why the shield bearer failed to do his duty is a matter for conjecture...

But we are rather far afield from Herod are we not?

[Patrick Waterson]

Impressive, David, and thanks.  Your volume of Hebrew weaponry is going to be very useful.

One thought, though.

Exhibit one:

kidun is Strong's 3591, kiydown from the root 3589 kiyd to strike or to crush. So it was something to strike or crush with

Exhibit two:

kiydown differs from the macca of Job 41:26 (dart or arrow), and of towthach of Job 41:29 (mace or club ...).

Job 41:29 reads

k.qsh nchshbu thuthch u.ishchq l.rosh kidun

as straw [they] reckon a bludgeon and ridicule the smiting of a kidun

Given the tendency of the second term in a line of Hebrew poetry to be a reiteration or related expression of the first, kidun (kiydown) is here identified as a bludgeoning weapon.

Given that Goliath's is made of bronze, this suggests a mace.

Joshua's holding his kidun aloft as a signal can be seen in two contexts:

1) The equipment of the Hebrews with Egyptian weaponry following the Red Sea crossing (Josephus, Antiquities II.16.6: "On the next day Moses gathered together the weapons of the Egyptians, which were brought to the camp of the Hebrews by the current of the sea.")

2) The use of the mace as the status weapon of a commander (note traditional portrayals of Pharaoh smiting enemies).

This suggests Joshua may have been using an Egyptian mace, or subsequently fabricated copy thereof.

Given the above, I would identify kidun as a mace.  Goliath's would have been bigger than most.

[Dave Beatty]

Job 41:29 reads

k.qsh nchshbu thuthch u.ishchq l.rosh kidun

as straw [they] reckon a bludgeon and ridicule the smiting of a kidun

You've convinced me Patrick! Especially in view of the origin of the term kidun as something to crush with, it must have been some sort of mace. Perhaps it had even evolved into a symbol of leadership, perhaps carried in some sort of quiver-like container at times.

Anyone know what the Egyptian term for mace was?