Oh no, not another Camelot!

[Jim Webster]

The Pelagian heresy never seems to get up the head of steam necessary to rage    I suspect a vast majority of Christians, whether they were under the nominal control of a Pelagian bishop or not, couldn't tell the difference. Compared with the Donatists in North Africa (who knew how a heresy should rage) it was a civilised dispute in the members bar of a rather exclusive club 

[Imperial Dave]

fair point although it was felt necessary to send Germanus to sort it out....although he did it, (allegedly) without having to burn anyone!

[Jim Webster]

fair point although it was felt necessary to send Germanus to sort it out....although he did it, (allegedly) without having to burn anyone!

The fact that it could be decided by a debate has always struck me as interesting. If true it's a first amongst church heresies  Actually I've read several writers who reckon that Pelagian thinking has remained within the British  in some way through to the present day.

But the presence of Germanus in 429 seems to indicate that it was an ordered society and the "Alleluia Victory was against the Picts and scots and fought in Mold in northern Wales!

[Imperial Dave]

fair point although it was felt necessary to send Germanus to sort it out....although he did it, (allegedly) without having to burn anyone!

The fact that it could be decided by a debate has always struck me as interesting. If true it's a first amongst church heresies  Actually I've read several writers who reckon that Pelagian thinking has remained within the British  in some way through to the present day.

But the presence of Germanus in 429 seems to indicate that it was an ordered society and the "Alleluia Victory was against the Picts and scots and fought in Mold in northern Wales!

A breed apart eh?

And yes, the Germanus episode seems to indicate there is stabilty some 20 years after the rescript of Honorius (although some writers dont ascribe to that particular assumption re the rescript!). Interestingly it seems to suggest that the southern part of Britain appears not to be under much threat insofar as Germanus felt it necessary to lead what troops there were personally due to a lack of experience? (feel free to amend!). Perhaps at this time the North was militarised (as normal) and the South was not even though we have to acknowledge that at least Western Britain was under threat

[Jim Webster]

Yes the situation is entirely different from that envisaged with Germanic peoples rampaging across Britain to be stopped by Arthur or whoever.
So the generation after 'Rome Left' managed pretty well and seems to have kept the lights on well enough

[Imperial Dave]

That does appear to be the case although, whether we believe it fully or not, the inference is that once a serious threat came to Southern/Western Britain it was unable to cope such that it relied upon a travelling clergyman to whip the local militia into shape. In fact does that lead us to propose that only militia type troops are around at this point? At least in Southern/Western areas?

[Bohemond]

Guardian readers (always ahead of the rest) will know that King Arthur is alive and well living on a council estate in Farnborough (where his grandchildren went to school with my kids 20 years). That is when he's not carrying out his druidical duties at Stonehenge. I wouldn't be surprised if the new road tunnel doesn't open up the cavern where the rest of the Knights of the Round Table lie sleeping.

[Jim Webster]

That does appear to be the case although, whether we believe it fully or not, the inference is that once a serious threat came to Southern/Western Britain it was unable to cope such that it relied upon a travelling clergyman to whip the local militia into shape. In fact does that lead us to propose that only militia type troops are around at this point? At least in Southern/Western areas?

given he'd been a Dux in Auxerre before entering the church he might have had considerable experience, perhaps more than was available to the forces in the SE if the country had been peaceful.
Also it may be that Wales had been largely stripped of military forces (isn't there hints of this from the forts and the Notitia?) and therefore there was a somewhat ad hoc force put together to deal with a threat?
The force might actually have been Welsh from the local communities

[Patrick Waterson]

The travelling clergyman was evidently a martial or at least belligerent bishop (we see the same thing in mediaeval England on occasion, not always with a fortunate outcome - cf Archbishop Melton at Myton in AD 1319). What this episode does tell us is that despite the withdrawal of active troops in AD 410 there was still a credible military organisation in place as of AD 428 - the withdrawal of the legions had not left the province entirely defenceless.

What was lacking was leadership: with the death of Constantine III in AD 411) there was literally nobody left in overall charge of Britannia.  If there was some form of deputy as of AD 411 he was presumably dead or otherwise gone by AD 428, but the local forces were still there: the impression one gets is that when Germanus came, he saw himself placed at the head of forces which sprang up at his coming, and he conquered.

It suggests that anyone with Dux Bellorum status could do the same.  Naturally it would take a highly competent Dux to do it well, and over a sustained period.

I wouldn't be surprised if the new road tunnel doesn't open up the cavern where the rest of the Knights of the Round Table lie sleeping.

Historians ought to be there when that happens.

[Erpingham]

the local forces were still there: the impression one gets is that when Germanus came, he saw himself placed at the head of forces which sprang up at his coming, and he conquered.

the inference is that once a serious threat came to Southern/Western Britain it was unable to cope such that it relied upon a travelling clergyman to whip the local militia into shape. In fact does that lead us to propose that only militia type troops are around at this point? At least in Southern/Western areas?

Isn't it fascinating how we can make opposite interpretations from the same event?  A leaderless regular army or a demilitarised society relying on militia.  And this from a relatively well recorded event.  Sums up the problems of interpreting the period, I think.

Moving on though, the Germanus event does suggest a period of organised civic life in the lowland zone.  Archaeologically, we have possible federate or federate descended communities around, yet clearly not yet as leaders.  The symbolic/actual arrival of Hengest and Horsa (more by-names) in the late 440s was seen by those who came after as a watershed.  So, do we go back to the old model and say there is a functioning society, struggling but making its way, for a generation after 410, in which existing Germanic communities are integrated, followed by later waves of incomers with a more radical agenda?

[Jim Webster]

Anthony, I see no reason to not assume a functioning society. To a certain extent we might see Bishops replacing civitas leaders in some areas, this seems to have happened in Gaul where some cities chose their bishop to 'rule', often because he was a competent person of the right social class

Jim

[Imperial Dave]

the local forces were still there: the impression one gets is that when Germanus came, he saw himself placed at the head of forces which sprang up at his coming, and he conquered.

the inference is that once a serious threat came to Southern/Western Britain it was unable to cope such that it relied upon a travelling clergyman to whip the local militia into shape. In fact does that lead us to propose that only militia type troops are around at this point? At least in Southern/Western areas?

Isn't it fascinating how we can make opposite interpretations from the same event?  A leaderless regular army or a demilitarised society relying on militia.  And this from a relatively well recorded event.  Sums up the problems of interpreting the period, I think.

Moving on though, the Germanus event does suggest a period of organised civic life in the lowland zone.  Archaeologically, we have possible federate or federate descended communities around, yet clearly not yet as leaders.  The symbolic/actual arrival of Hengest and Horsa (more by-names) in the late 440s was seen by those who came after as a watershed.  So, do we go back to the old model and say there is a functioning society, struggling but making its way, for a generation after 410, in which existing Germanic communities are integrated, followed by later waves of incomers with a more radical agenda?

in answer to the first point....yes! I am still leaning more to the militia type or localised/hereditary units BUT can see the opposite point of view as well (in point of fact not so opposite more 2 faces of the same coin?)

re the second point of organised life in the lowland zone, this is where it gets really interesting . Could we infer that some form of functioning civitas and partly Sub Roman life existed with villa based grandees and a few important leaders calling the shots, liaising with the (faithful) foederati communities (possibly several generations in from being 'inserted' during imperial years) and hoping that the troubles of the North dont come southwards? Highland areas would potentially revert to more tribal arrangements and less 'Roman-like'/civitas organised communities more quickly and potentially also retain a higher degree of martial readiness? Could we go further and thus propose either a collapse or partial collapse of the North and Western 'frontiers' led to a lowland response of looking to bolster local forces which could have led to a requirement for further foederati hence the Adventus Saxonum?

[Sharur]

The talk of bears and chariots from Gildas 32 naturally calls to mind the seven brighter stars of the north-circumpolar constellation the Great Bear, Ursa Major, long known in many places as a wagon or chariot, including Britain, where it also had an association with Arthur. For instance, Canto I.XVII of Walter Scott's lengthy poem Lay of the Last Minstrel from 1805 opens with:

"Arthur's slow wain his course doth roll,
In utter darkness, round the pole;
The Northern Bear lowers black and grim:"

(Cited from the 1889 edition, based on Scott's text and notes going back to 1813, available in various formats, including downloadable PDF, here.)

It's unclear how long before Scott's time this may have been current, though his familiar use of it would suggest it as commonly understood by the mid to late 18th century at least.

There's then an intriguing triplet of Arthurian constellations cited as from Welsh folklore in and before 1909 via Marie Trevelyan's Folk-Lore and Folk-Stories of Wales. From p. 35:

...the Lyre is Arthur's Harp; the Great Bear is Arthur's Ploughtail; Orion is Arthur's Yard...

(Scanned version available online via this webpage, also again including a free PDF download option.)

The provenance and longevity of such names is uncertain from this source too, but it's interesting that the long-standing British perception of a plough in these same seven stars is an unusual choice, not found elsewhere. Possibly it may be linked to the Welsh aradr, plough, which would naturally need a driver or ploughman, aradrwr or arddwr...

[Jim Webster]

As a simple farm boy the Plough constellation looks a damned sight more like a plough than a bear :-)



Provided of course its got a mouldboard and isn't just an ard, which means it's probably later than Arthur, perhaps several hundred years later.

Lord alone knows what the significance of this is

[aligern]

So what are the 'militia' style forces that are available to a 5th century Roman province.
We know that landlords held large estates and could provide a group of likely mounted men. These would ge small in number.  They  are for collecting taxes and coercing coloni.  We should see them as not cavalry n a large unit scale, but one could assemble quite a few if the overall leader had the authority. I would inagine small groups such as the followers of Ecdicius in Gaul. In Spain in the 6th century the Ostrogoth Theudis arried a wealthy Spanish heiress and could provude 2000 men from his hokding which were lijely very large.
Towns would likely have a watch who guarded the gates, arrested wrongdoers, manned walls. Towns in Spain appear to have been well capable of defending thenselves against barbarians, but not of power projection . Walls were maintained by groups within the town taking responsibility for repairing them and presumably manning them (Caesarius of Arles) and Procopius has the Jews of Naples nanning a section so particular groups might have a specified duty. However, such troops would not ge. very useful in the field, like the units raised in Spain by the cousins of Honorius, who failed to hold the mountain passes against the Vandals. Maybe such a levy would be best advised to hide in a valley and shout to scare the enemy.
That there were settlements of Germanic laeti in Britain starting in the 4th century seems certain. They apoear to be quite small and are not locared on the border so maybe they held fords or towns, or the Saxon shore forts such as Pevensey.  . Lastly there are the British federates, tribes such as the Votadini, or the Welsh of North and West Wales.vThese were likely the largest military  forces and were more apt that the town or estate troops. At Dereham in 577 the Saxons defeated the forces of the British 'kings' of Bath Cirencester and Gloucester, which implies that these chaps had forces, perhaps augmented by Irish federates. Its a very messy picture, no doubt an army could ge assembled but any sizeable force would be an alliance . Fortunately for the British their Saxon opponents were also fragmented and their alliances would suffer the same centripetal tendencies.
We should remember that the Britons are the only post Roman entity to hold back their barbarian attackers for any sgnificant period.
Roy