Oh no, not another Camelot!

[Patrick Waterson]

How about doing an AD 480-520 prototype to sort out basic goals, mechanisms and factions/powers, and using it to fine-tune the basic points systems, goals, play outline, key special rules etc.?  If it goes swimmingly, start adding extra details for a grand AD 410-600 version.

[Imperial Dave]

makes sense Patrick...the shorter version is focused on assembling alliances and winning battles and prestige for a singular leader. The longer game would look to more long term for building (long lasting) dynastic kingdoms

[Anton]

This all sounds very interesting.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. First, Marwanad Cunedda indicates that the civates were not the only level of political organisation. Cunedda has his own court, he can allocate land and has a warband but no claims of a royal title are made for him.  He was expected to fight alongside the men of Bryneich but no one claims he led them. Once killed his court poet is concerned to ensure that the treaty between polities that provided for Cunedda's role is renewed so that the Warband and poet can continue in their present position.  Second, the geographical scope of the poem would indicate that present day Cumbria, Durham and Northumberland with perhaps Lothian too, comprised a recognised political area.

Success in game terms might be to be recognised as the Wledig of the whole area.

[Imperial Dave]

completely agree.....there is a political 'unity' inferred for the area by treaty (mentioned as you indicate in the poem) but not necessarily one of 'kingdom' status.

back to the 'nature' of our Arthur leader....Wledig (aka Guletic etc) is seen in the mould of a Protector and thus possibly a titular 'leader' but not a king

[Anton]

Yes Arthur seems not to have been a King at all.  I'm minded to see Guletic/Wledig as a king who holds the allegiance of other kings.  Some quite prominent lads are denied the title so it has some precise meaning.

[Imperial Dave]

I think it was Snyder who went into some depth about the title of 'Tyrant' and its meaning in our period. He was minded (from memory) to think of Tyrant as a leader but not necessarily a king in the classic sense.

so potentially we have tyrants (a la Gildas) ruling civitas/areas with an Overlord or Protector who may or may not have been a ruler himself, very much in keeping with a Dux Britanniarum   

[Anton]

He did, and also considered the relationship between the words Tyrant and Tigern.  Vortipor is titled protector but he comes from an Irish dynasty established it seems by Maxin Wledig so in that case we have a title (and position) accruing to an original king surviving in use by by his successors. Koch makes a similar point about the word Iudex, are these people appointees or governing in their own right as perhaps the magistrates of former colonia?   

I wonder about Gildas and his ideas about legitimacy, clearly Roman is good and the Church is even better.  The kings are all Celtic ones and they can be good or bad, the foam flecked bards are clearly very bad but they are the custodians and promulgators of native elite culture.  The accusations of adultery don't work from the stand point of Celtic law where serial marriage and temporary marriage are all provided for.  I'm intrigued by Koch's view of Bangor, where he seems to place Gildas, and Powys as a militant Christian alliance operating along the lines of Iona and Northumbria.

[Imperial Dave]

thanks, trying to remember sources on the hoof is difficult for me!

re Gildas.....does anyone wonder why he mentions just 'Highland' area kings for his attacks. Obviously some of the eastern portions of the island are lost to the proto-English by the mid 6th C, but he appears to neglect lowland British (controlled) leaders altogether. Is this to do with a Celtic outlook versus a Sub Roman outlook (again touching upon religion here as discussed earlier in the thread)? Patrick (no the historical one ;-) ), has a go at Coroticus as a 'feral' or apostate British leader in a similar vein to Gildas.....ie both attack the morals of the leaders/tyrants/kings but not their military or leadership prowess   

[Anton]

I think it is about religion. Despite its success in replacing paganism Christianity never impacted upon the Celtic legal system beyond slotting the clergy into the old Druid slot in the hierarchy. Irish clerics never stopped complaining about the secular aristocracy to little avail.

If Koch is right about Powys then we have Gildas's ideal kingdom with the Church as a major power acting as gate keeper to the kingship.

Patrick's letter is interesting he clearly sees Coroticus and co as part of the same nation as himself cives of Roman successor states who share a political and cultural identity including Christianity. He is not exceeding his authority because the victims are his flock and the incident took place on his turf.  Coroticus has enslaved some of Patrick's converts and has done so with the help of Irish and Pict pagans.  Charles-Edwards discusses it at length in an illuminating way. It is striking that Patrick is threatening Coroticus rather than pleading with him - just like Gildas.

[Imperial Dave]

  Charles-Edwards discusses it at length in an illuminating way. It is striking that Patrick is threatening Coroticus rather than pleading with him - just like Gildas.

which of his books btw so I can have a look?

[Anton]

Holly, it is in Charles-Edwards Early Christian Ireland published in 2000.

[Imperial Dave]

thought so.....I have a copy

up in the loft somewhere! 

[Imperial Dave]

For those interested, I have been delving into the Cunedda stuff especially the poem attributed to Taliesin and it does throw up some interesting stuff with regards to our thread although potentially 'too early' for an an Arthurian period proper (?). There are quite a few translations knocking about and even Koch has produced several versions. This is probably my favourite though:

Between the brine and the high slope and fresh stream water,
men will cringe before Cunedda, the violent one.
In Caer Weir [?Durham] and Caer Lywelydd [Carlisle],
fighting will shake the Roman towns [civitates].
A tidal inrush of flame, a wave from across the sea;
champion will set upon champion;
moved by the man who gained sway across the habitable surface of the world,
as the sighing of the wind over the ash wood.
The heirs of Kynvarch and those of Coel will hold fast together in alliance.
They will adorn the skillful bards who sing.
It is the death of Cunedda that I mourn and shall mourn.
The thick door, the stout stronghold of refuge,
the fearless one is mourned --
the noble, refined, profound one,
His address to the towns of the Romans [civitates] was harsh and stark,
harder than bone against the foe.
Exalted Cunedda, before going to his earthen resting place,
he maintained his honour a hundred times over.
Before our protector perished,
the men of the land of Byrneich [Bernica] were wont to give battle.
A song of pain was sung for fear and dread of him before a covering of earth became his portion.
A pack like wild dogs ensheathed him.
Cowardice is worse than death. For this bitter death I lament,
for the court and the onslaught of Cunedda.
For [want of] the abundance of the brine, for the salmon of the sea,
for the spoils of the oven, I shall now surely perish.
I shall recite the verse that the bards recite.
As others reckon, I shall reckon
the wonders of the battle lord:
[his] gift of a hundred steeds before Cunedda took his share.
He used to grant me cattle in mid summer.
He used to grant me horses in winter.
He used to grant me bright wine and oil.
He used to grant me a throng of slaves for a household.
He was a mighty attacker in conflict --
the chieftain whose face was that of a lion.
The borderland was always reduced to ashes prior to the everlasting overthrow of Edern's son [Cunedda].
He who was brave, unyielding, fierce, is cut off by the consuming power of death.
He was wont to sustain a resplendent shield [ie protection].
Heroic men were his captains.
Grief wakens me, holds back the wine of the man great in feats --
the sleep of Coel's descendants destroyed.

[eques]

A possible mention of another semi-legendary King in that last line.

[Anton]

Nice to see that Holly.

I wonder if we read civitates as a political unit rather than (walled) Roman towns what we would be talking of.  We have the Carvetii in the west around Carlisle, something around Corbridge according to some and I'd guess something in north Durham possibly centred on Chester le Street/ Durham/Caer Weir or further south at Vinovium/Binchester.

In one of his treatments of Marwanad Cunedda Koch opines the phrase 'profound one' that is to say 'deep one' is a reference of the Cunedda's Dumnonian ancestry. At the moment I cannot recall if Cunedda was a Coeling but, if he was, we might think that Coel was also Dumnonian.