Germanic Archers

[ahowl11]

Hello again,

Was away from some time, but back to modding. Just finished adding some Celtic units and now I am moving on to the Germanic tribes.. Found a unit, a Germanic Archer.. Was wondering if they were worth adding or not? I'm not so sure if the Germanic Tribes fielded Archers before the A.D.'s. Any help would be appreciated!

[Mark G]

Wether they are worth fielding depends on the rules.

Wether they are accurate to chose from is a different question.

[aligern]

Its lijely that the Germans develop archery more towards 200 AD than earlier and this may be because of contact with the Romans.
I don't remember Tacitus describing bowmen as being a speciality of any particular tribe , or of him describing weapons other than bundles of javelins , the framea spear and a few swords. On the column of Marcus Aurelius slingers appear. Pre AD you might have a few skirmiher bowmen, but not in a number sufficient to influence dispositions.
The main comment in Tacitus is on the very large numbers of javelins thrown, including those with no iron, simply wood sharpened and hardened in a fire.
Roy

[Duncan Head]

Like Roy, I'm not aware of any great evidence for Germanic archery before about 200 AD; the earliest may be Adamklissi metope XXXI if the archer in the tree is (as the nudity would suggest) Bastarnean or some other German rather than Dacian - and that's after 100 AD, so not a lot earlier. Notably no trace of bows or arrows at Hjortspring (c.350 BC, proto-Germanic, perhaps the earliest big Iron Age weapons find in the North) though there are a lot of chipped stones interpreted as missiles.

[Erpingham]

We know that archery was used in warfare in the German Bronze Age though, so it is possible it survived to re-emerge in the record in the first centuries AD, rather than be lost then re-introduced.  But the absence of reference probably rules out a significant role and "units" of archers would seem to me unlikely if that were the case.

[Patrick Waterson]

The bow was a traditional hunting weapon in most European cultures, so we can expect archery and archery skills to have been available.

Now comes the 'but'.

First century BC/AD German warrior ethos and archery do not really mix.  For this reason, one would not mormally expect to find archer units on the battlefield, although one might find individuals and small groups of archers among the scouts.

That said, it may be worth remembering that the Gauls under Vercingetorix fielded significant numbers of archers, although their deployment and use is not detailed.  It may thus have been the case that some of the more forward-thinking and charismatic German leaders may have assembled their own archer contingents, and I note the following description of weapon finds at Kalkriese:

"Archaeologists found so many objects, that it was hard to believe that the fight at Kalkriese was a minor skirmish: Roman swords and daggers, parts of javelins and spears, arrowheads, sling stones, fragments of helmets, a mask, nails of soldiers' sandals, belts, hooks of chain mail and fragments of armor." (source here)

The arrowheads seem to have been found among the Romans, which suggests they were used against them as opposed to being shot by Roman auxiliary archers.  Unfortunately I have not been able to clarify this point.

So - my suggestion - on the basis of Kalkriese, feel free to field that unit of Early German archers, but only for a particularly charismatic/effective/outstanding leader.

[aligern]

Interestinlgly Vercingetorix recruited archers from all Gaul, I think he caused them to be registered. He was going to use them in combination with his cavalry, but they did not tip the scales, perhaps because working with cavalry requires long habituation.  Later , in the Civil War Caesar hires archers in Gaul as auxilia in Spsin. This rather buttresses Patrick's point, that archers are around, but not used in units (in Gaul) and that it took a special effort. to get them together to act as a unit.
Isn't Kalkreise a little different from a normal battle? The Germans may well be on a temporary fortification that is being used to pen the Romans in and so getting archers together to shoot into the Roman mass will be very useful. Whether that equates to use in the open field in units is a moot point.
Roy

[ahowl11]

Hmm well the way recruitment works in this game, there are a few methods:

1) Basic Recruitment through tiers: So to recruit units you need to have the barracks for the faction/culture in question, in this case the Germanic tribes. Tier one usually yields skirmishers and spearmen, and as you upgrade the building to say tier 4, you'll have your fanatical troops, trained troops and cavalry, to go along with the basic warbands. I could put the archer unit in the last tier.

2) Reforms: it's possible to have a reform meaning a certain date, building built or event needs to happen for the availability of a unit to appear. I can wait til a certain date to activate but I'm not too high on this method as the game begins in 270 BC and is 6 turns per year!

3) Mercenaries: this is an intriguing option because there's a trick that can be used for mercenaries. Usually the rules with mercenaries are as follows: recruitable by generals outside of settlements, expensive, can't be retrained, limited amount available. The trick is that you can limit certain units to only be available to certain factions. In this case I'd only have a small amount of Germanic archers available for the Germans only..

Really though it seems as if it's a wasted amount of space if they weren't really around in my timeframe.

The question now is Gallic/Celtic archers because I didn't add them but it looks like there's substantial evidence for them, was I wrong to leave them out?

[Mark G]

Is it a computer game?

[Patrick Waterson]

The question now is Gallic/Celtic archers because I didn't add them but it looks like there's substantial evidence for them, was I wrong to leave them out?

The evidence is primarily Caesar's Gallic War VII.31.4:

"At the same time that his diminished forces should be recruited, he [Vercingetorix] levies a fixed quota of soldiers from each state, and defines the number and day before which he should wish them brought to the camp, and orders all the archers, of whom there was a very great number in Gaul, to be collected and sent to him. By these means, the troops which were lost at Avaricum are speedily replaced."

Gallic archers are not mentioned in most battlefield accounts, so it looks as if Vercingetorix's incorporation of significant numbers of archers into his army was something of an innovation.  Perhaps, as Roy says, they were intended mainly to work with the cavalry, but inexperience resulted in poor cooperation.

The apparent common factor is intelligent and charismatic leadership, so I suggest the following to build them into the game:

Reform - upgrading a chief's residence to a certain level (highest?) allows recruitment of archers.

This should link the appearance of archers to the incipient statehood the Gauls acquired under Vercingetorix and the Germans - at least temporarily - under Arminius.  Had Vercingetorix succeeded and/or Arminius lived longer, then it is quite likely that archery units would have become a standard feature of Gallic and/or Germanic armies.

I leave it to your esteemed self whether to adopt something like this suggestion.

Is it a computer game?

Rome - Total War.

[ahowl11]

The only way I can simulate that is by making them a factional mercenary unit, so that only Celtic Generals can recruit them. I can probably do the same for the Germans.

The game is Rome Total War yes, but what I am working on is a complete modification of the game: Rome Total Realism. There are tons of versions so if you want to see my version I can certainly provide a link.

[Patrick Waterson]

The only way I can simulate that is by making them a factional mercenary unit, so that only Celtic Generals can recruit them. I can probably do the same for the Germans.

That sounds good to me.  A faction leader is usually the driving force behind his power's military innovation, so that would fit nicely.

The game is Rome Total War yes, but what I am working on is a complete modification of the game: Rome Total Realism. There are tons of versions so if you want to see my version I can certainly provide a link.

Yes, please.

[ahowl11]

This is the main download
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?744570-Rome-Total-Realism-8-Beta-v3-0-Release-Announcement-Download-Links!

And this is the all important patch for it.


http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?745788-Rome-Total-Realism-8-Beta-v3-1-Info-and-Download-Links

I'm having trouble with Celtic armies in general now.. I have a bunch of units but they aren't really organized well. I'll be creating a new thread soon.

[Patrick Waterson]

Thank you.

Hope we can help with the Celts. *ponders source scarcity and crosses fingers*