Othismos tests

[Justin Swanton]

Mediaeval pikers, who didn't have shields, had no reason for the front rankers to hold their pikes underarm except to receive a cavalry charge and then they used their pike like a skewer. Otherwise they preferred overarm, no arguments.

I think you may have misunderstood the evidence I presented.  Visual evidence shows that, for pikes and long spears in formation, the prefered medieval mode was underarm, with some use of couched.  Overarm is rarely depicted, and then as individuals in melee.  This seems to change in the 16th century - we have formation use of overarm depicted by 1502-1505 ish by landsknechts and it goes on to predominate by the middle of the century.  So far, we have not found a contemporary source which explains why the change happened.

I spotted the word 'Mediaeval' was wrong and changed it to 'Renaissance'. My take is that battlefield experience was worth more than a ton of theory. However beloved the traditional idea of the underarm Macedonian phalanx might have been to the theorists, the soldiers and their commanders eventually worked out that overarm was better which...possibly...a genius like Philip might have worked out from the start. (just sayin'...)

[Imperial Dave]

or a combo of the both?

[Erpingham]

I've gone a bit back to basics and asked my next "underarm v. overarm" question on the "underarm v. overarm" thread

[PMBardunias]

I've gone a bit back to basics and asked my next "underarm v. overarm" question on the "underarm v. overarm" thread

So retro

[PMBardunias]

One question: haven't tests shown that a human body can put more force behind an overarm strike than an underarm one? I increasingly favour the overarm hold for pikes because they have more flexibility with their pikes - they can move them around and aim them - and hence they can actually create a homogenous wall of spears which IMHO underarm, with pikes jammed together between shields, especially shields in close formation, is much more difficult to achieve (but that returns to beaten ground so I'll just leave it at my question).

Overarm is much stronger, and more importantly, it is consistently stronger on average of multiple strikes. I will note that I am not so sure the strength of strike is the most important factor in hoplite combat, but others have chosen it to be, so it sets the debate.

I cannot tell you if this translates to a two handed overhand strike. It has not been tested.

[Imperial Dave]

well, as an aside I have just purchased a book by a certain PMB on Amazon.......

[PMBardunias]

well, as an aside I have just purchased a book by a certain PMB on Amazon.......

Thank you, please let me know what you think.  Each chapter opens with a battle that illustrates the chapter's topic. My coauthor wrote most of those, but I would enjoy feedback on my construction of the demise of Epaminondas at Mantinea.

Also, if any of you receive Ancient Warfare magazine, I have an article on the function of shield walls and I welcome comments.

[Mark G]

Can I suggest someone with a copy, picks out the battle narrative from the Alfred Duggan on the founding of Rome.

I think it will add to the discussion considerably.

[Imperial Dave]

well, as an aside I have just purchased a book by a certain PMB on Amazon.......

Thank you, please let me know what you think.  Each chapter opens with a battle that illustrates the chapter's topic. My coauthor wrote most of those, but I would enjoy feedback on my construction of the demise of Epaminondas at Mantinea.

Also, if any of you receive Ancient Warfare magazine, I have an article on the function of shield walls and I welcome comments.

no problem Paul. I will gladly do so. I am a ('retired') reenactor (though not of Greek period unfortunately) and thoroughly interested in what others have to say through experimental reconstructions and theories. I believe that although reneacting cannot match the sheer terror of real hand to hand combat it does give an insight into mass participant battles and understanding of ways and ways not of how ancient infantry fought. 

[Imperial Dave]

Can I suggest someone with a copy, picks out the battle narrative from the Alfred Duggan on the founding of Rome.

I think it will add to the discussion considerably.

Hi Mark, whats the title?

[Erpingham]

Founding Fathers.  Chapter 4 Jupiter Stator.

[Imperial Dave]

Founding Fathers.  Chapter 4 Jupiter Stator.

ta, I'll go and find it