Could the Persian Empire logistically support an army several million strong?

[Patrick Waterson]

who said anything about a 'long thin column of march'

Someone who mentioned 'two or three wide' - the name escapes me.

Advancing in an eight wide column across a battlefield was standard enough procedure because you could just bring the column round 90 degrees and you're in line of battle

Very true, although the Greeks had no reason to believe they would be in a battle.  They were pulling out before the Persians were awake, and expected to relocate before the Persians could do anything about it.  Amompharetus spoiled all that, which was not part of the plan.

So as I said, it shows nothing about troops shambling about like locusts on a broad front. The Persians too might have deployed into a line of battle, advanced rapidly and lost formation but this is on a battlefield.

They may or may not have advanced 'like locusts', but they did advance on a broad front.  One may recall that in the lineup in IX.46-47, the last before the Greeks decided to pull out to a new camp, the Spartans were on the right and the Athenians on the left of the Greek army, which puts the other contingents in between them.  These other contingents, not being delayed by Amompharetus or Medising Greeks, had continued on their journey until they became aware there was fighting,  and so came late to the party.

"During this steadily growing rout there came a message to the rest of the Greeks, who were by the temple of Hera and had stayed out of the fighting, that there had been a battle and that Pausanias' men were victorious. When they heard this, they set forth in no ordered array, those who were with the Corinthians keeping to the spurs of the mountain and the hill country, by the road that led upward straight to the temple of Demeter, and those who were with the Megarians and Philasians taking the most level route over the plain." - Herodotus IX.69

'Set forth in no ordered array' might seem indicative of at least a hint of 'locust' behaviour.  The 'road', incidentally, is not in the Greek.

We're not talking about the Spartans, we're talking about the minor states, other than the Athenians and Spartans. They had been harassed, the harassing had stopped but they could expect it to restart at any time.

No, they had not been harassed, they had proceeded without let or hindrance and subsequently joined the battle once they knew the fighting had started (see Herodotus IX.69).  They proceeded to the fighting by various different routes, i.e. a 'broad front' advance.

Nowhere does it say they adopted the 'Persian locust' formation and just sprawled across the countryside with no formation whatsoever

Herodotus IX.69 might be considered to disagree. But the army did proceed on a wide front over a variety of countryside, which is the point I wish to establish.

You might have accepted that it's possible to store wheat for four years without modern technology (when we still don't store wheat for that length of time if we can help it) but please don't assume that other people have

It may or may not have been possible for the Achaemenids to store wheat for that length of time, but it was nevertheless eminently possible for them to fill their store-cities on a rolling basis in anticipation of a particular campaign date as you have previously sensibly and knowledgeably described.

[Mark G]

Have you considered the makeup of the Persian host.  Large amounts of subject peoples, un willing and unlikely to be disciplined.

I submit no king would allow them to pick their own route or remain far out of sight of reliable troops to keep them under control.

[Justin Swanton]

Wow. 34 pages! Impressive.

What's the SoA forum without at least one good bunfight in progress?

[Patrick Waterson]

Wow. 34 pages! Impressive.

I did not read all of the very erudite replies to this and I am away from my library at the moment but as I recall didn't Engels cover this a bit in his most excellent "Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army"?

Not sure whether Engles considered all aspects of the situation, but he did try, certainly.

Also, I recall reading in some ancient primary source (Herodotus?) that the Persians had to leave Macedonia because they ran out of food and fodder...

There is nothing in Book VII of Herodotus to suggest he ran out of supplies in Macedonia during his advance, but in Book VIII the Battle of Salamis deprived the Achamenid army of any ship-borne resupply, and the results were rapid and catastrophic.

"So the herald took that response and departed, but Xerxes left Mardonius in Thessaly. He himself journeyed with all speed to the Hellespont and came in forty-five days to the passage for crossing, bringing back with him as good as none (if one may say so) of his host. [2] Wherever and to whatever people they came, they seized and devoured its produce. If they found none, they would eat the grass of the field and strip the bark and pluck the leaves of the trees, garden and wild alike, leaving nothing—such was the degree of their starvation. [3] Moreover, pestilence and dysentery broke out among them on their way, from which they died. Some who were sick Xerxes left behind, charging the cities to which he came in his march to care for them and nourish them, some in Thessaly and some in Siris of Paeonia and in Macedonia." - Herodotus IX.115

Might this be the bit you had in mind?

[Patrick Waterson]

Have you considered the makeup of the Persian host.  Large amounts of subject peoples, un willing and unlikely to be disciplined.

I submit no king would allow them to pick their own route or remain far out of sight of reliable troops to keep them under control.

I doubt they were that undisciplined; the one case of 'insubordination' (at Plataea) involved an officer, not soldiery, disobeying orders and leaving early with his contingent.  Artabazus had taken the oracles to heart and decided he wanted no part in any upcoming defeat, so hied off back to Asia with his entire corps.  They seem to have obeyed him without question.

The Achaemenids anyway seem to have had had their own system which substituted threat of the whip for actual discipline except among Persians, Medes and similar high-status troops.

[Jim Webster]

who said anything about a 'long thin column of march'

Someone who mentioned 'two or three wide' - the name escapes me.

Advancing in an eight wide column across a battlefield was standard enough procedure because you could just bring the column round 90 degrees and you're in line of battle

Very true, although the Greeks had no reason to believe they would be in a battle.  They were pulling out before the Persians were awake, and expected to relocate before the Persians could do anything about it.  Amompharetus spoiled all that, which was not part of the plan.

The Greeks weren't stupid. They could see the Persian camp when they set off. Of course they knew they could be in a battle

[Jim Webster]

It may or may not have been possible for the Achaemenids to store wheat for that length of time, but it was nevertheless eminently possible for them to fill their store-cities on a rolling basis in anticipation of a particular campaign date as you have previously sensibly and knowledgeably described.

what store cities? Where are the cities in Thrace or Macedonia (or even Asia minor) where archaeology shows us the granaries capable of holding the grain to feed six million men for the campaign?

Remember you're looking at something an order of magnitude larger and more impressive than Ostia

[Justin Swanton]

It may or may not have been possible for the Achaemenids to store wheat for that length of time, but it was nevertheless eminently possible for them to fill their store-cities on a rolling basis in anticipation of a particular campaign date as you have previously sensibly and knowledgeably described.

what store cities? Where are the cities in Thrace or Macedonia (or even Asia minor) where archaeology shows us the granaries capable of holding the grain to feed six million men for the campaign?

Remember you're looking at something an order of magnitude larger and more impressive than Ostia

Maybe some maths is in order here. What does a granary building look like, how much can it hold, and how many would be needed for several million men for a few days? (supplemented by what the navy can offload on the neighbouring shore)

[Erpingham]

Maybe some maths is in order here. What does a granary building look like, how much can it hold, and how many would be needed for a several million men for a few days? (supplemented by what the navy can offload on the neighbouring shore)

I think there is a danger of two alternative systems getting muddled here.  Patrick has expressed disdain for a "magazine" approach of building up large stocks on the march route.  After an initial dabble with daily supply over beaches, we seem to have settled for weekly depots.  I thought the intention was to stock them from magazines in Asia Minor by ship in sequence, rather than prestock all of them before the start?   So nowhere in Europe would we expect to find sophisticated granary structures, just wooden camps near suitable beaches.  On a previous discussion of the topic, Patrick has proposed the existence of vast semi-permanent granaries near one or two ports in Asia Minor, which have yet to be archaeologically detected.

[Erpingham]

Talking about clarifications, I'm a little concerned that operational manoeuvers in proximity to the enemy and the long route march through territory with no real threat of attack are being assumed to use the same type of deployment. 

Personally, I continue to be uncomfortable with a Persian army that is the most efficient military machine logistically in the pre-modern era, whose march discipline and routine is so precise, yet when it comes in sight of the enemy, it becomes "a horde of locusts".  Unless "horde of locusts" is a practiced tactic performed on command, I think we have a dissonance here.

[Jim Webster]

It may or may not have been possible for the Achaemenids to store wheat for that length of time, but it was nevertheless eminently possible for them to fill their store-cities on a rolling basis in anticipation of a particular campaign date as you have previously sensibly and knowledgeably described.

what store cities? Where are the cities in Thrace or Macedonia (or even Asia minor) where archaeology shows us the granaries capable of holding the grain to feed six million men for the campaign?

Remember you're looking at something an order of magnitude larger and more impressive than Ostia

Maybe some maths is in order here. What does a granary building look like, how much can it hold, and how many would be needed for several million men for a few days? (supplemented by what the navy can offload on the neighbouring shore)

Rome had three hundred horrea or granaries (but they probably stored more than just grain, oil was stored in them as well.
The Horrea Galbae contained 140 rooms on the ground floor alone, covering an area of some 225,000 square feet (21,000 m²).

An agricultural rule of thumb is that  60 x 40 x 9 feet is 18.29m x 12.19m x 2.74m or 611 m3 or 427 tonnes of wheat if you have it enclosed on all 4 sides. That's obviously loose grain.

As for how much grain per man, 1 choinix per day (1.5lb) isn't enough to keep a man alive and active (Romans and ACW had 3lb a day). So if 1 choinix is right it had to be supplemented by something, but that too would have to be carried in and stored. So I'll assume 3lb per day.
5000 men will need six and two third tons per day. (or 3.3 tons and 17 Cattle a day slaughtered if there was only 1.5lbs of grain.)

So a million men will need 1338 tons a day (or half that and 3400 cattle slaughtered a day)
So for six million men (because there's the fleet and all those engineers working etc) we need 8028 tons a day.

let us assume they cross the Bridge on the 1st May (and at that point start on European stored rations) and fight Salamis late in September so approximately 150 days..
So that's 1,204,200 tons of wheat, of 600,000 and 3,060,000 cattle. Obviously not all the cattle need to be cattle, but in crude terms a bullock replaces 8 sheep, both in meat produced and food eaten

We have five depots mentioned so each is going to hold 240,840 tons of wheat which means each granary has 564 bins each about 60 x 40 x 9 feet 
Obviously different bin sizes can be chosen but for smaller ones you need more, and for storing grain in amphorae or sacks you need more again

[Jim Webster]

Maybe some maths is in order here. What does a granary building look like, how much can it hold, and how many would be needed for a several million men for a few days? (supplemented by what the navy can offload on the neighbouring shore)

I think there is a danger of two alternative systems getting muddled here.  Patrick has expressed disdain for a "magazine" approach of building up large stocks on the march route.  After an initial dabble with daily supply over beaches, we seem to have settled for weekly depots.  I thought the intention was to stock them from magazines in Asia Minor by ship in sequence, rather than prestock all of them before the start?   So nowhere in Europe would we expect to find sophisticated granary structures, just wooden camps near suitable beaches.  On a previous discussion of the topic, Patrick has proposed the existence of vast semi-permanent granaries near one or two ports in Asia Minor, which have yet to be archaeologically detected.

doesn't Herodotus mention 5 depots?

[Justin Swanton]

We have five depots mentioned so each is going to hold 240,840 tons of wheat which means each granary has 564 bins each about 60 x 40 x 9 feet 
Obviously different bin sizes can be chosen but for smaller ones you need more, and for storing grain in amphorae or sacks you need more again

About 390 yards square for a depot. Not inconceivable. The Long Walls of Athens, built of stone and each about 6km long, took 4 years to build.

[Duncan Head]

Rome had three hundred horrea or granaries (but they probably stored more than just grain, oil was stored in them as well. ...
As for how much grain per man, 1 choinix per day (1.5lb) isn't enough to keep a man alive and active (Romans and ACW had 3lb a day). So if 1 choinix is right it had to be supplemented by something, but that too would have to be carried in and stored. So I'll assume 3lb per day. ...
So a million men will need 1338 tons a day (or half that and 3400 cattle slaughtered a day)
So for six million men (because there's the fleet and all those engineers working etc) we need 8028 tons a day.

Earlier, Jim, you were talking about the difficulties of storing grain for several years. So given that Xerxes was allegedly preparing this expedition for four years, I wonder how much spoilage we should allow for.

[Jim Webster]

We have five depots mentioned so each is going to hold 240,840 tons of wheat which means each granary has 564 bins each about 60 x 40 x 9 feet 
Obviously different bin sizes can be chosen but for smaller ones you need more, and for storing grain in amphorae or sacks you need more again

About 390 yards square for a depot. Not inconceivable. The Long Walls of Athens, built of stone and each about 6km long, took 4 years to build.

Oh they could have been built, but we'd struggle not to find them. Because there'd be a lot of internal walls (and good thick internal walls because grain 'pushes')
Granaries survive well in the archaeological record because they have to be so well built.