Could the Persian Empire logistically support an army several million strong?

[Justin Swanton]

One last, last time, and then we can all agree to disagree.

Amphorae were universal storage containers and were used to store grain as well as wine, olive oil, etc. I read that everywhere.

Grain will keep for several years if its moisture level is kept below 10 - 15% and was in fact stored for several years without difficulty in dry climates like Egypt's. Silos or granaries in a wetter climate meant for short-term storage could store the grain loose or in sacks. What we need is something that works for long-term storage and sealed amphorae are perfect for that. Sealed bins also work. Sealed pits also work. The main point is that it is possible to make it work.

There is no evidence grain was transported by ship in amphorae, granted. Sacks or loose seems to be have been the standard method. I suggested that the grain from Egypt and the Mediterranean coastline could have been shipped in amphorae if the local Greeks could not manufacture enough in quantity, but on reflection it makes more sense to transplant the potters in Greece, have them make the amphorae there (if amphorae were used), and then just ship the grain loose or in sacks. Bear in mind you don't need a vast army of potters, just a few thousand. A potter can make 4 amphorae in a day. You would need 5000 - 6000 potters to make the necessary amphorae. 6000 potters x 4 amphorae a day x 250 days per year (I let them goof off for 4 months a year) x 4 years = 24 million amphorae, should be enough for storing the long-term grain. Given them just Sundays off and it's nearly 30 million amphorae.

A lot of amphorae brought together in one place do not have to all be broken up in shards, leaving a massive dump for archaeologists. Witness the lack of wine amphorae shards in Rome (800 million amphorae!). The amphorae can be reused which means spread around before they are finally broken and discarded.

[Erpingham]

Lets disagree about amphorae   They are a bit peripheral to the question and we can't agree on their importance. 

[Flaminpig0]

Is there any archaeological evidence for the several million man army?

They folded their tents, like the Arabs,
      And as silently steal away.



We have an Empire with an estimated population of 50 million
(So 25 million of them male and perhaps 17 million of them of working/military age)
And you take six million of them on a jaunt outside the empire, as well as employing 300,000 as extra labourers in Egypt, I forget how many thousand as amphorae manufacturers, we have men building ships, crewing extra merchant ships, we have untold thousands already on site, clearing roads and digging canals. If we call this another million, that gives us 7 million

In WW2 the Americans had 9% (approximately) of their population in the military. Germany hit 31% in some form of service, but that may include men who did their day job and served as firewatchers at night

Xerxes took 14% of his population, when the vast majority of them were involved in subsistence agriculture. He removed from the economy about 40% of men of working age.
Agriculture would have collapsed and you'd have had massed starvation in home provinces. Who was sowing the crop in Babylonia that was to be harvested whilst xerxes and his lads were in Northern Greece? Who was there left to harvest it?

I suppose it makes sense if you see the Persian Empire as a 'biblical ' society  with a Hitler like leader able and willing to order such total lunacy as a vanity project.

[Erpingham]

I think Jim is a bit high on his percentage of population who are males who are of military age.  I'd go for about 13 million out of 50 million, on the rule of thumb that only about 50% of an ancient society is over 15.  What proportion of those were military capable, I don't know.  Perhaps half, on the basis that half Xerxes army was supposed to be "support units"?  So 38% of the military manpower of the Empire and 38% of the workers.  We know that the Roman Republic often put 15% of its citizen manpower in the field (and is said to have put 66% in the field at the time of Cannae , which might be termed an existential event).  Most ancient empires seem to have gone for smaller percentages as routine, I suspect in part because of the difficulty of projecting all your military potential  on one front in a large empire but partly because of the economic disruption of removing too many people from a productive role.

[Justin Swanton]

Is there any archaeological evidence for the several million man army?

They folded their tents, like the Arabs,
      And as silently steal away.



We have an Empire with an estimated population of 50 million
(So 25 million of them male and perhaps 17 million of them of working/military age)
And you take six million of them on a jaunt outside the empire, as well as employing 300,000 as extra labourers in Egypt, I forget how many thousand as amphorae manufacturers, we have men building ships, crewing extra merchant ships, we have untold thousands already on site, clearing roads and digging canals. If we call this another million, that gives us 7 million

In WW2 the Americans had 9% (approximately) of their population in the military. Germany hit 31% in some form of service, but that may include men who did their day job and served as firewatchers at night

Xerxes took 14% of his population, when the vast majority of them were involved in subsistence agriculture. He removed from the economy about 40% of men of working age.
Agriculture would have collapsed and you'd have had massed starvation in home provinces. Who was sowing the crop in Babylonia that was to be harvested whilst xerxes and his lads were in Northern Greece? Who was there left to harvest it?

Don't quite see the problem Jim. Xerxes takes 6 million men and leaves behind 11 million of working age. The 11 million men (2/3 of the labour force) manage the farms possibly helped by the women. Is there any reason why this should be unmanageable?

[Flaminpig0]

Is there any archaeological evidence for the several million man army?

They folded their tents, like the Arabs,
      And as silently steal away.



We have an Empire with an estimated population of 50 million
(So 25 million of them male and perhaps 17 million of them of working/military age)
And you take six million of them on a jaunt outside the empire, as well as employing 300,000 as extra labourers in Egypt, I forget how many thousand as amphorae manufacturers, we have men building ships, crewing extra merchant ships, we have untold thousands already on site, clearing roads and digging canals. If we call this another million, that gives us 7 million

In WW2 the Americans had 9% (approximately) of their population in the military. Germany hit 31% in some form of service, but that may include men who did their day job and served as firewatchers at night

Xerxes took 14% of his population, when the vast majority of them were involved in subsistence agriculture. He removed from the economy about 40% of men of working age.
Agriculture would have collapsed and you'd have had massed starvation in home provinces. Who was sowing the crop in Babylonia that was to be harvested whilst xerxes and his lads were in Northern Greece? Who was there left to harvest it?

Don't quite see the problem Jim. Xerxes takes 6 million men and leaves behind 11 million of working age. The 11 million men (2/3 of the labour force) manage the farms possibly helped by the women. Is there any reason why this should be unmanageable?

Might the women be already fully engaged in socially useful/essential work and not be available to help out with farming, assuming they aren't already?

[Erpingham]

Don't quite see the problem Jim. Xerxes takes 6 million men and leaves behind 11 million of working age. The 11 million men (2/3 of the labour force) manage the farms possibly helped by the women. Is there any reason why this should be unmanageable?

Forgive me Justin, but this is a bit of a sweeping dismissal based on little apparent substance.

Do we have evidence that Persian agriculture was so inefficient, you could remove 1/3 of the workforce without effect?  As Ian has already pointed out, were women all sitting around doing nothing waiting be called up to work in the fields? 

I suspect that we (non-specialist non-academics) don't know enough about the way the Persian Empire worked to really answer these questions.  So we are in danger of creating a Persian Empire which fits our image and provides the basis for our position. 

Is it possible to refocus on the campaign, where our greater knowledge of military history may prove useful?

[Justin Swanton]

Don't quite see the problem Jim. Xerxes takes 6 million men and leaves behind 11 million of working age. The 11 million men (2/3 of the labour force) manage the farms possibly helped by the women. Is there any reason why this should be unmanageable?

Forgive me Justin, but this is a bit of a sweeping dismissal based on little apparent substance.

Do we have evidence that Persian agriculture was so inefficient, you could remove 1/3 of the workforce without effect?  As Ian has already pointed out, were women all sitting around doing nothing waiting be called up to work in the fields? 

I suspect that we (non-specialist non-academics) don't know enough about the way the Persian Empire worked to really answer these questions.  So we are in danger of creating a Persian Empire which fits our image and provides the basis for our position. 

Is it possible to refocus on the campaign, where our greater knowledge of military history may prove useful?

Use the 4 years preparation to grow enough extra food so you can do without ⅓ of the labour force for the one year planting and harvesting, which adds up to ¼ of ⅓ extra of the annual harvest = 8% extra ground cultivated call it 11% if only three years' extra food is grown and problem solved.

But sure, I'm happy to leave food and amphorae aside and look at other aspects. 

PS: think there's a chance we might actually make 100 pages?

[Duncan Head]

Use the 4 years preparation to grow enough extra food so you can do without ⅓ of the labour force for the one year planting and harvesting, which adds up to ¼ of ⅓ extra of the annual harvest = 8% extra ground cultivated call it 11% if only three years' extra food is grown and problem solved.

Except that you then have to build new granaries all over the Empire to store it, of course.

[Flaminpig0]

ork.

There is no evidence grain was transported by ship in amphorae, granted. Sacks or loose seems to be have been the standard method. I suggested that the grain from Egypt and the Mediterranean coastline could have been shipped in amphorae if the local Greeks could not manufacture enough in quantity, but on reflection it makes more sense to transplant the potters in Greece, have them make the amphorae there (if amphorae were used), and then just ship the grain loose or in sacks. Bear in mind you don't need a vast army of potters, just a few thousand. A potter can make 4 amphorae in a day. You would need 5000 - 6000 potters to make the necessary amphorae. 6000 potters x 4 amphorae a day x 250 days per year (I let them goof off for 4 months a year) x 4 years = 24 million amphorae, should be enough for storing the long-term grain. Given them just Sundays off and it's nearly 30 million amphorae.

Justin, are you aware of the concept of Occam's razor.

[Justin Swanton]

ork.

There is no evidence grain was transported by ship in amphorae, granted. Sacks or loose seems to be have been the standard method. I suggested that the grain from Egypt and the Mediterranean coastline could have been shipped in amphorae if the local Greeks could not manufacture enough in quantity, but on reflection it makes more sense to transplant the potters in Greece, have them make the amphorae there (if amphorae were used), and then just ship the grain loose or in sacks. Bear in mind you don't need a vast army of potters, just a few thousand. A potter can make 4 amphorae in a day. You would need 5000 - 6000 potters to make the necessary amphorae. 6000 potters x 4 amphorae a day x 250 days per year (I let them goof off for 4 months a year) x 4 years = 24 million amphorae, should be enough for storing the long-term grain. Given them just Sundays off and it's nearly 30 million amphorae.

Justin, are you aware of the concept of Occam's razor.

I am indeed. And....?

[Mick Hession]

PS: think there's a chance we might actually make 100 pages?

Absolutely, if the will to generate a theoretical framework to overcome all practical objections is there.   

Cheers
Mick

[Justin Swanton]

Use the 4 years preparation to grow enough extra food so you can do without ⅓ of the labour force for the one year planting and harvesting, which adds up to ¼ of ⅓ extra of the annual harvest = 8% extra ground cultivated call it 11% if only three years' extra food is grown and problem solved.

Except that you then have to build new granaries all over the Empire to store it, of course.

Or increase the storage capacity of current granaries by 33%. I'm making the hypothetical assumption existing granaries already had that capacity in anticipation of bumper harvests or the odd military campaign (of which there had been quite a few from the inception of the empire). 

[Imperial Dave]

Back to the amphorae 

Grain at less than 10% moisture is good less than 5% ideally

[Flaminpig0]

ork.

There is no evidence grain was transported by ship in amphorae, granted. Sacks or loose seems to be have been the standard method. I suggested that the grain from Egypt and the Mediterranean coastline could have been shipped in amphorae if the local Greeks could not manufacture enough in quantity, but on reflection it makes more sense to transplant the potters in Greece, have them make the amphorae there (if amphorae were used), and then just ship the grain loose or in sacks. Bear in mind you don't need a vast army of potters, just a few thousand. A potter can make 4 amphorae in a day. You would need 5000 - 6000 potters to make the necessary amphorae. 6000 potters x 4 amphorae a day x 250 days per year (I let them goof off for 4 months a year) x 4 years = 24 million amphorae, should be enough for storing the long-term grain. Given them just Sundays off and it's nearly 30 million amphorae.

Justin, are you aware of the concept of Occam's razor.

I am indeed. And....?

You don't think it is more likely that Herodotus was wrong about the size of the Persian army than the alternative hypothesis which relies on a lot of supposition  to make it even remotely plausible.