Why would non-flanked formations rout?

[Patrick Waterson]

I don't know anything about the play but the plot seems based in Greek rather than Egyptian legend.   Presumably, Patrick is aware of theory of an Egyptian origin?

Oh yes.  Everything in the Oedipus story from the sphinx outside Thebes to the custom of burial instead of cremation smacks of Egypt.

There is also a remarkable correspondence between the leading figures in the Oedipus story and the royal family of Egypt's Amarna period - not just the characters, but their actions.  Some of the material has gone through the wash of cross-cultural transfer, but a remarkable amount of detail has been preserved.

Take the duel in Phoenissae, as quoted by Paul.  Look closely at what happens with Eteocles.

1) Eteocles, in kicking aside a stone that rolled beneath his tread, exposed a limb outside his shield, and Polyneices, seeing a chance of dealing him a blow, aimed at it, and the Argive shaft passed through his leg ...

The self-moving stone may be a poet's interpolation, but Tutankhamun did have a defective left foot which, with or without the aid of a stone, could have caused him to stumble and expose a leg.  The traces of gold leaf in Tutankhamun's leg wound are consistent with being struck by a gilded spear - as would have been used by Egyptian royalty (in this case his brother 'Polyneices' - Smenkhare).

2) And the wounded man, seeing Polyneices' shoulder bare in this effort, plunged his spear with all his might into his breast ...

The mummy of Smenkhare is poorly preserved and only the bones remain, so we only have the pathology of one side of the duel.  We note in passing how easily weapon thrusts go through the chalkeois ... hoplois, which seems more consistent with it being permeable Egyptian scale than a solid Greek thorax.

3) Disengaging himself from the immediate contest, [Eteocles/Tutankhamun] drew back his left foot but kept his eye closely on the pit of the other's stomach from a distance; then advancing his right foot he plunged the weapon through his navel and fixed it in his spine. Down fell Polyneices, dripping with blood ..

The thrust would have been awkward with a standard khepesh, but was eminently suited to the kind of sword carried by Ahmose and presumably used by Eighteenth Dynasty royalty.  Again, the poor state of preservation of Smenkhare's remains means we can confirm nothing from his mummy.  Tutankhamun's is a different story.

4) Polyneices, who had fallen first, was still faintly breathing, and having in his grievous fall kept his sword, he made a last effort and drove it through the heart of Eteocles.

This article on a serious chest wound revealed by Tutankhamun's 2005 CT scans is most relevant in this regard.

Interesting is that the ribs were neatly cut, perhaps indicating a desperate attempt at heart surgery to save the life of the young king.

Eteocles is wounded twice, in the left leg and in the chest, the latter affecting the heart.  Tutankhamun's mummy bears two wounds; one in the left leg and one in the chest; the heart is missing, as if damaged and removed.  The one in the left leg bears traces of gold leaf, as if left there by a royally decorated spear blade.

And then there are the burials.  We move to Sophocles' Antigone, lines 195-205, where the new king, Creon (Ay) is pronouncing on the now-deceased duellists.

"Eteocles, who fell fighting in behalf of our city and who excelled all in battle, they shall entomb and heap up every sacred offering that descends to the noblest of the dead below. But as for his brother, Polyneices, I mean, who on his return from exile wanted to burn to the ground the city of his fathers and his race's gods, and wanted to feed on kindred blood and lead the remnant into slavery—it has been proclaimed to the city that no one shall give him funeral honors or lamentation, but all must leave him unburied and a sight of shame, with his body there for birds and dogs to eat."

One brother is sumptuously buried (in KV62); the other is denied funeral rites, but is later clandestinely buried by his sister (in KV55).  Tutankhanum, Smenkhare, Meritaten.  The sister who buried her brother contrary to decree is sentenced:

"I will take her where the path is deserted, unvisited by men, and entomb her alive in a rocky vault, setting out a ration of food, but only as much as piety requires so that all the city may escape defilement." - idem lines 774-776

KV 54.  Meritaten's stay there was not long.

"... in the furthest part of the tomb we saw her hanging by the neck, fastened by a halter of fine linen threads ..." idem lines 1220-22

Part of that halter of fine linen strips was found around the neck of Meritaten's mummy in KV35, where it resides with the other two Amarna period royal suicides, Queen Tiy (Jocasta) and Prince Thutmose (Chrysippus), and was clearly visible when the mummy appeared on Dr Joanne Fletcher's documentary in quest of Nefertiti several years ago.

And this is just the start of the correspondences between the Amarna period and the Oedipus legend.

If we are to consider this further, I suggest a new thread.

[Erpingham]

So this is speculation based on perceived similarities rather than a theory based on evidence of an actual connection between Egyptian history and Greek legend?  I must say, given the uncertainties about Tutankhamuns death, it is a brave man who reconstructs it in detail as a single combat.  However, as you say, this thread isn't really the place for it and it deserves its own place.

[Patrick Waterson]

So this is speculation based on perceived similarities rather than a theory based on evidence of an actual connection between Egyptian history and Greek legend?

Well ... no.  I am highlighting pattern recognition from details in source evidence, which is neither speculation nor theory, just identity of patterns.  There is incidentally plenty of Egyptian artistic evidence for close connections between 18th Dynasty Egypt and the Mycenaean world, including a) reliefs/tomb paintings of Mycenaeans bringing tribute and b) the British Museum Amarna papyrus Duncan referred to in another thread, showing Myceneans and Egyptians fighting with or against each other, depending upon whom you read.  Ergo, there is no difficulty in positing that Greeks knew of the events and significant people of the Amarna period and were sufficiently impressed by them to record them, albeit in poetry (and drama) rather than history as they had not yet got around to writing history.  The connection is not a problem.  The interesting part is the extensive series of close correspondences through three generations (Laius/Amenhotep III to Eteocles/Tutankhamun), showing that someone took the trouble to note quite a bit of detail.

For example, the three royal suicides in the Oedipus legend (Chrysippus, Jocasta and Antigone) correspond exactly in age group and gender to the three 18th Dynasty royal suicides in KV35 (Thutmose, Tiy and Meritaten).  We can conclude that they also correspond in cause, i.e. the reasons for their respective suicides, unexplained in Egyptian sources, are revealed in the Greek story.

Is the subject of Oedipus, Amarna and Tutankhamun's civil war worth a discussion thread?  Would anyone be interested?

[Jim Webster]

Is the subject of Oedipus, Amarna and Tutankhamun's civil war worth a discussion thread?  Would anyone be interested?

The problem with Oedipus is that you have to look at the various sources were have, Sophocles and others and decide what they, as writers, added to the story from their own experience, and what was passed down originally
After all Sophocles wrote some of his Theban plays after the Athenian expedition to Egypt

[Erpingham]

Ergo, there is no difficulty in positing that Greeks knew of the events and significant people of the Amarna period and were sufficiently impressed by them to record them, albeit in poetry (and drama) rather than history as they had not yet got around to writing history.  The connection is not a problem.  The interesting part is the extensive series of close correspondences through three generations (Laius/Amenhotep III to Eteocles/Tutankhamun), showing that someone took the trouble to note quite a bit of detail.

I don't think the problem is a connection between Thebes and Egypt in the Mycenaean period, or even that the Greeks recorded information about Egyptian affairs.  It is the leap of saying that a Greek myth is lifted in detail from Egyptian events and that somehow that detailed original survived to appear in drama hundreds of years later.  You have no evidence for this except that you have noted "similarities", some of which (e,g. the death of Tutankhamun) are subject to multiple interpretations already.  Anyway, this is taking us a very long way from our original topic.  The Phoenecian Women was introduced as a description of hoplite combat, albeit with the "heroic" element we might expect in a drama setting.  I can no longer remember how this related to the topic, but it did seem to have some value.

[Patrick Waterson]

Anyway, this is taking us a very long way from our original topic.  The Phoenecian Women was introduced as a description of hoplite combat, albeit with the "heroic" element we might expect in a drama setting.  I can no longer remember how this related to the topic, but it did seem to have some value.

It related after a fashion to Justin's thoughts about the element of sparring and manoeuvre in frontal infantry combat, and the extent to which armour provided protection from weapon penetration.

[Erpingham]

Anyway, this is taking us a very long way from our original topic.  The Phoenecian Women was introduced as a description of hoplite combat, albeit with the "heroic" element we might expect in a drama setting.  I can no longer remember how this related to the topic, but it did seem to have some value.

It related after a fashion to Justin's thoughts about the element of sparring and manoeuvre in frontal infantry combat, and the extent to which armour provided protection from weapon penetration.

Thank you - I recall now