Voulgiers?

[Martin Smith]

Hi
The WotR Henry VII DBA  list has options for French Pikemen and Voulgiers.
Is there a reference for the voulgiers, or are they a 'maybe', translated extant from French armies?

Is it likely that the voulge was indeed different from a bill, or maybe a French term for the same/similar?

Martin

[Duncan Head]

They're a maybe. We don't know what the French infantry in Henry VII's army were armed with; there is a theory that they were pikemen, but it's not all that strong a theory. Voulgier is a term often used in French sources of the period, it might just mean "infantry with generic polearms"; the following regulation seems to call a voulge-wielder a guisarmier, suggesting that "voulge" and "guisarme" were interchangeable:

Luy semble que ceux qui porteroient voulges les devroient avoir moyennement larges, et qu'ils eussent ung peu de ventre. Et aussi qu'ils feussent tranchans et bons estoc. Et que lesdits guisarmiers ayent salades à visieres, gantelets et grands dagues, sans espées.

It seems to him that those who would bear voulges should have them moderately broad, and that they should have a little "stomach" (?a convex curve to the blade?). And also that they should be sharp and good ?for thrusting? ("estoc" is usually a stiff thrusting-sword). And that said guisarmiers have sallets with visors, gauntlets and large daggers, without swords.

from http://lerozier.free.fr/ordonnance.htm

[aligern]

Might we say a 'belly' on the blade? As in the blade bellies out?
R

[Duncan Head]

Yes, good phrase. I think that's what it means, anyway.

[Erpingham]

I think "bons estoc" is "well-pointed" in this case, from an earlier meaning of the word "sword point", but the intent is clear.  The is probably intended to be something like an early Swiss halberd.  But that said, medieval people were far less interested in precise terminology than we are - note that the voulge carrier is called in guisarmier in the next sentence.  Guisarmer was also used to translate billman.

[Duncan Head]

Incidentally for discussion on whether the French were pikemen:

Michael K Jones rediscovered a document relating to the French troops, and theorised that they were pikemen. Two views:
http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/review16.htm
http://www.richardiii.net/downloads/Ricardian/2004_vol14_review_article_phantom_bastardy_visser-fuchs.pdf

Later discussions:
http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=31400
https://historum.com/threads/henry-tudors-french-troops-at-the-battle-of-bosworth.134441/
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=348066 (this one with me chiming in)

[Erpingham]

Some of the problem arises from the fact that we are in the period between the disbandment of the bandes of Louis XI after his death and the re-establishment of the franc-archers 1486.  Exactly who the French troops raised by Henry Tudor were is therefore unclear.  Some secondary sources claim they were soldiers in royal pay, others they were former soldiers of the bandes from Normandy, others still that they were just recruited from volunteers and ex-prisoners.  It seems to me likely they were aventuriers recruited by a captain(s) on Henry's behalf with French royal backing.  If they had served in the bandes, they are likely to have been pikemen and halberdiers (because the bandes were equipped in the Swiss style).  They may also have included other troops with pole weapons formerly of the franc-archers, as well as crossbowmen and archers.  We might note that the French crown was raising crossbow companies in 1486, so the possibility of gens de trait among Henry's troops exists.

[Martin Smith]

Many thanks for the answers. Guess that means that almost any late 15th century polearm wielders might be used to fit the bill (oops, no pun originally intended....but I'll leave that in 😊).

Martin