Chabrias' peculiar hoplite formation

[PMBardunias]

A bit late to the party, but I am of the opinion that it was as Duncan showed from Connolly. You may read some that say it was a defensive position that was "set" to receive a hoplite charge. The problem is that hoplites are not horses and the charging lines I have been in would simply stop and stab anyone on their knees in the face in short order.  They could have been kneeling on one knee with the shield on the ground, then it can rest on the knee itself, but either way, it was an at ease, not defensive posture. A note though, some variations on the stem γόνυ^ refer to a lap, so the definition as knee may not be as tight as it first seems. Perhaps "resting on the knee" and "resting on the thigh" were not so different to Diodorus. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=go%2Fnu&la=greek&can=go%2Fnu0&prior=to\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0083:book=15:chapter=32&i=1#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=go/nu^-contents

[Andreas Johansson]

A note though, some variations on the stem γόνυ^ refer to a lap, so the definition as knee may not be as tight as it first seems. Perhaps "resting on the knee" and "resting on the thigh" were not so different to Diodorus. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=go%2Fnu&la=greek&can=go%2Fnu0&prior=to\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0083:book=15:chapter=32&i=1#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=go/nu^-contents

Funnily enough, this is quite similar to modern Swedish were knä means "knee", but the expression i knät means "in the lap" (and not "in the knee" as you'd think from the component words). Knee, knä, and gonu are all from the same IE root, so one wonders if the knee/lap ambiguity is original.

[Justin Swanton]

A bit late to the party, but I am of the opinion that it was as Duncan showed from Connolly. You may read some that say it was a defensive position that was "set" to receive a hoplite charge. The problem is that hoplites are not horses and the charging lines I have been in would simply stop and stab anyone on their knees in the face in short order.  They could have been kneeling on one knee with the shield on the ground, then it can rest on the knee itself, but either way, it was an at ease, not defensive posture. A note though, some variations on the stem γόνυ^ refer to a lap, so the definition as knee may not be as tight as it first seems. Perhaps "resting on the knee" and "resting on the thigh" were not so different to Diodorus. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=go%2Fnu&la=greek&can=go%2Fnu0&prior=to\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0083:book=15:chapter=32&i=1#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=go/nu^-contents

Mmmh. γόνυ means 'knee' in classical Greek. It doesn't mean anything else. And if your front rank hoplite is kneeling with his shield right up at his eyes, and the chap right behind him is standing, and both have spears aimed at you from different angles, then good luck to you. See if you can dispatch the front ranker as easily as all that.

Presuming the front ranker is actually kneeling, this disposition resembles the fulkon, which was a perfectly viable anti-infantry as well as anti-cavalry formation. It does actually work.

The burden of proof lies in showing that leaning hoplon shields on knees is a physical possibility.

[Erpingham]

Presuming the front ranker is actually kneeling, this disposition resembles the fulkon, which was a perfectly viable anti-infantry as well as anti-cavalry formation. It does actually work.

But they only kneel in the anti-cavalry foulkon.  In the ordinary one, the two ranks with the overlapping shields are standing.

They advance in a fulcum, whenever, as the battle lines are
coming close together, both ours and the enemy's, the archery is
about to commence, and those arrayed in the front line are not
wearing mail coats or greaves. He [the herald] orders, "ad
fulco." And those arrayed right at the very front mass their
shields together until they come shield-boss to shield-boss,
completely covering their stomachs almost to their shins. The
men standing just behind them, raising their shields and resting
them on the shield-bosses of those in front, cover their chests
and faces, and in this way they engage.

Note, in passing, that the standard foulkon is an anti-missile defence.  The implication is that infantry advance on infantry and stand against cavalry.

The burden of proof lies in showing that leaning hoplon shields on knees is a physical possibility.

How so?  How do we know that leaning against the knee was a literal statement not a figurative one meaning "standing at ease"?   Surely, the burden is to consider how hoplites would show contempt through a drill action - kneeling or resting their shields against their legs?

[Andreas Johansson]

Mmmh. γόνυ means 'knee' in classical Greek. It doesn't mean anything else.

I note that Liddell and Scott disagree with you.

[PMBardunias]

A bit late to the party, but I am of the opinion that it was as Duncan showed from Connolly. You may read some that say it was a defensive position that was "set" to receive a hoplite charge. The problem is that hoplites are not horses and the charging lines I have been in would simply stop and stab anyone on their knees in the face in short order.  They could have been kneeling on one knee with the shield on the ground, then it can rest on the knee itself, but either way, it was an at ease, not defensive posture. A note though, some variations on the stem γόνυ^ refer to a lap, so the definition as knee may not be as tight as it first seems. Perhaps "resting on the knee" and "resting on the thigh" were not so different to Diodorus. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=go%2Fnu&la=greek&can=go%2Fnu0&prior=to\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0083:book=15:chapter=32&i=1#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=go/nu^-contents

There is one problem with a Folcum analogy, The guy kneeling has no shield over his face.  Thus, I can stand at a range that the standing man behind him cannot reach me and plant my spear in his face.  I can also move forward an back with my line of standing men, while they are stuck in place. Overall, this is the type of formation that sounds good in theory, but falls apart in real life.

Follow the link I posted,  γόνυ does not always mean knee.  And again, this is not a folcum because of the lack of overlapping shields.

[Justin Swanton]

Looking through the dictionaries, the word γόνυ can be used as a metaphor much in the the same way it is used in English: bend the knee, bring someone to his knees, etc. But the word itself means 'knee'. It doesn't mean 'hip' or 'thigh'. So setting a shield firmly against the knee or resting a shield against the knee must mean exactly that unless the phrase is a common expression meaning 'to take it easy on the battlefield', or something like that. Which needs to be proven.

[RichT]

Xenophon Cyropaedia 7.3.5 "But his wife, they say, has decked her husband with what she possessed and now sits upon the ground, holding his head in her lap [epi tois gonasi]."

Xenophon Anabasis 7.3.23 "But a certain Arcadian named Arystas, a terrible eater, would have none of this throwing about, but took in his hand a loaf as big as a three-quart measure, put some pieces of meat upon his knees [epi ta gonata], and proceeded to dine."

Xenophon Anabasis 1.5.13 "Clearchus escaped to his own army and at once called his troops to arms; he ordered his hoplites to remain where they were, resting their shields against their knees [pros ta gonata]"

Diodorus 15.32.5 "Chabrias the Athenian, however, leading his mercenary troops, ordered his men to receive the enemy with a show of contempt, maintaining all the while their battle lines, and, leaning their shields against their knees [pros to gonu], to wait with upraised spear."

'Gonu' can mean 'knee' when it needs to mean knee, and it can mean 'lap' or 'leg' (or something vaguer) when it needs to mean lap or leg, just as 'knee' can in English. Most of us learn this sort of thing, the subtlety of language, at our mother's knee.

In the Chabrias case, Xenophon Anabasis 1.5.13 puts the burden of proof firmly on anyone who insists that Diodorus 15.32.5 means something different (in this case, specifically the knee joint and no other part of the leg). This sort of hyper-literalism must have some limits, for heaven's sake.

[Jim Webster]

Xenophon Cyropaedia 7.3.5 "But his wife, they say, has decked her husband

this is a beautiful example of the flexibility of language
decked has evolved over a comparatively short time 

[Justin Swanton]

Xenophon Cyropaedia 7.3.5 "But his wife, they say, has decked her husband with what she possessed and now sits upon the ground, holding his head in her lap [epi tois gonasi]."

Xenophon Anabasis 7.3.23 "But a certain Arcadian named Arystas, a terrible eater, would have none of this throwing about, but took in his hand a loaf as big as a three-quart measure, put some pieces of meat upon his knees [epi ta gonata], and proceeded to dine."

Xenophon Anabasis 1.5.13 "Clearchus escaped to his own army and at once called his troops to arms; he ordered his hoplites to remain where they were, resting their shields against their knees [pros ta gonata]"

Diodorus 15.32.5 "Chabrias the Athenian, however, leading his mercenary troops, ordered his men to receive the enemy with a show of contempt, maintaining all the while their battle lines, and, leaning their shields against their knees [pros to gonu], to wait with upraised spear."

'Gonu' can mean 'knee' when it needs to mean knee, and it can mean 'lap' or 'leg' (or something vaguer) when it needs to mean lap or leg, just as 'knee' can in English. Most of us learn this sort of thing, the subtlety of language, at our mother's knee.

In the Chabrias case, Xenophon Anabasis 1.5.13 puts the burden of proof firmly on anyone who insists that Diodorus 15.32.5 means something different (in this case, specifically the knee joint and no other part of the leg). This sort of hyper-literalism must have some limits, for heaven's sake.

Fair enough. Xenophon 1.5.13 is the clincher. Clearchus clearly wasn't telling his men to form a fulkum. 'Knees' in this context has to mean upper half of leg, which corresponds to 'lap' in the other examples.

I'm convinced. 

[RichT]

Splendid! Now, about this othismos business...

[Justin Swanton]

Splendid! Now, about this othismos business...

Paul....?

[PMBardunias]

Splendid! Now, about this othismos business...

Paul....?

That is fodder for another thread...

[PMBardunias]

I'm convinced. 

I applaud you not fighting that position to the death.