A Double-headed Axe from Horseback?

[aligern]

It was a bit sad that Garrison made the really neat Phrygian Axeman figure as there was soon discovered to be no basis for it.( except in some Victorian costume book. Similarly the Gepid two handed axeman, which I think was based on Robert Graves, did nor survive scrutiny.
Roy

[Jim Webster]

It was a bit sad that Garrison made the really neat Phrygian Axeman figure as there was soon discovered to be no basis for it.( except in some Victorian costume book. Similarly the Gepid two handed axeman, which I think was based on Robert Graves, did nor survive scrutiny.
Roy

From memory it's this book that is at fault

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arms-Uniforms-Ancient-Egypt-Century/dp/0706318145

It appeared in 1972 and back then I suspect a lot of us bought copies. I'm pretty sure it included the Phrygian Axeman

[Erpingham]

It was a bit sad that Garrison made the really neat Phrygian Axeman figure as there was soon discovered to be no basis for it.( except in some Victorian costume book. Similarly the Gepid two handed axeman, which I think was based on Robert Graves, did nor survive scrutiny.
Roy

From memory it's this book that is at fault

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arms-Uniforms-Ancient-Egypt-Century/dp/0706318145

It appeared in 1972 and back then I suspect a lot of us bought copies. I'm pretty sure it included the Phrygian Axeman

See Reply #14 above.

The other favourite of the time, Saxtorph's Warriors and Weapons, has three Phrygians.  None are axemen but one is clearly based on a non-Victorian source i.e.



It can be fun (and much easier with Google) to work out the unattributed sources of Funckens, which are often Victorian costume histories, Victorian reconstructions in museums and interpretations of finds.  So, the Phrygian axeman is copied directly from (including colour scheme) a book from 1884 by Friedrich Hottenroth with added axe.  Another costume book from 1882 provides the armoured warrior with three-horned pelta and the axe itself.

[Dangun]

I was reading today about Minoan religion... and it added an interesting possibility for the source of the Amazonian axes meme/motif.

We actually have Minoan double-headed axes (e.g. the Arkalochori Axe), but apparently double-headed axes were apparently also religious symbols used exclusively by female deities. I wonder whether this gender association was the origin of double-headed axes being wielded by Amazons in later Greek art?

[Patrick Waterson]

That is interesting, beacuse in the wider Near East the double axe seems to have been a substitute for the thunderbolt symbol carried by a number of the more smitingly-inclined male deities.  Adad, for example, the storm god of Assyrians, Babylonians and Syrians alike, appears to start off holding two thunderbolts and then graduates to a double-headed axe and a thunderbolt.  See here for further details.

The Minoans were presumably not familiar with Adad, Teshub et. al. and may well have followed a different albeit related train of thought.

[Chuck the Grey]

It was a bit sad that Garrison made the really neat Phrygian Axeman figure as there was soon discovered to be no basis for it.( except in some Victorian costume book. Similarly the Gepid two handed axeman, which I think was based on Robert Graves, did nor survive scrutiny.
Roy

Funny you should mention those figures by Garrison. I just discovered 12 of them during my recent inventory of unpainted figures. The product code is PEA 4 if we are talking about the same figures. I was still intending to paint them up as a unit to add some color to my Persian army. I'll just use them as levy infantry even if they aren't historically accurate. They are a really neat figure. 

[Erpingham]

We can produce closer in time connections for two-handed axes and male deities in Asia Minor e.g. Zeus Labradeus and his sanctuary at Labraunda in Caria. However, it is difficult to see how this would be connected to Amazons.  The Minoan Labrys having a connection with mythological womenfolk might be an explanation, though it would require evidence of a memory of this being preserved.  Another possibility is that there was a double-axe variant of the more usual axe-and-spike weapon but we lack finds of this type.  Over time this becomes associated with Amazons in the same way as the three-horned pelta.

[Ade G]

May be way off-beam here but do recall axes being mentioned in relation to Phrygians - this may be from a very ancient Funken book in the 70's so treat with caution

Armies and Uniforms 1 Ancient Egypt to 18th century, p29.  "Phrygian with Double-Axe, a much favoured weapon"

The figure is dressed very like an Amazon in Persian dress - a case of mistaken identity?  The ornate three-horned pelta also makes an appearance as a Phrygian shield.

IIRC, Garrison had an armoured Phrygian axe-man in their persian range.

FWIW, it seems to me we have two types of axes associated with Amazons - the steppe type with axe blade on one side and spike on the other and a "double-axe", which seems to hark back to the Greek bronze age past.  Is the double-axe a real weapon or a sign we are dealing with the heroic past?

Such memories! Marvellous...

[Patrick Waterson]

One feature of a double axe as a weapon is that there is more weight in the head than for a comparably-sized single axe and hence good armour (or helmet) penetration.  A putative nation of women warriors might have found this aspect to be useful, as in all centuries prior to our politically correct times the generality of women were noted for being inferior in physical strength to men.  A one-handed double axe could pack considerable punch and penetration for its size and could have been a better and handier weapon for women warriors than (say) an Egyptian khopesh or poleaxe or one of those Lydian swiping weapons depicted at Yazilikaya.

Not having handled one (a double-headed axe, not a woman warrior) I do not know if the balance would be any better thna the single-bladed version.  Perhaps one of our members does.

[Erpingham]

I'm not convinced by Patrick's explanation.  It seems too modern.  It is hard for me to picture an artist sitting down and rationalising what sort of weapon would best suit a female warrior and coming down on a two-headed axe, which then became a standard way of depicting Amazons.   I think it more likely that the image of the Amazon draws on tropes from the Black Sea and Asia Minor regions, where our artists would have believed Amazons originated.  Many earlier images of Amazons wear Persian and Scythian style clothing and I believe the weapon set has the same influences.  Whether the double-bladed version of the axe existed remains an open question but a two foot plus axe with blade and spike certainly did.

[PMBardunias]

One feature of a double axe as a weapon is that there is more weight in the head than for a comparably-sized single axe and hence good armour (or helmet) penetration.  A putative nation of women warriors might have found this aspect to be useful, as in all centuries prior to our politically correct times the generality of women were noted for being inferior in physical strength to men.  A one-handed double axe could pack considerable punch and penetration for its size and could have been a better and handier weapon for women warriors than (say) an Egyptian khopesh or poleaxe or one of those Lydian swiping weapons depicted at Yazilikaya.

Not having handled one (a double-headed axe, not a woman warrior) I do not know if the balance would be any better thna the single-bladed version.  Perhaps one of our members does.

When you swing a single-bitted axe, the blade wants to turn the other way around in your hand because the balance point in not in line with your handle.  This is known as wobble, and those guys who chop or throw in competitions make a big deal of it.  It can be reduced by a counter-weight that puts the balance in line with the handle. This can be a poll (the hammer-like back on most axe blades) or a spike or another axe blade.  The blade will index better in your grip and bite true into your target.

[Patrick Waterson]

I'm not convinced by Patrick's explanation.  It seems too modern.  It is hard for me to picture an artist sitting down and rationalising what sort of weapon would best suit a female warrior and coming down on a two-headed axe, which then became a standard way of depicting Amazons.

If one begins from the standpoint of assuming Amazons were an artist's invention, one could easily come to this conclusion.  If on the other hand Amazons were at one point a historical phenomenon, the use of a double-bitted axe is easier to understand and does not require an imaginative classical artist thinking in modern terms.

I think it more likely that the image of the Amazon draws on tropes from the Black Sea and Asia Minor regions, where our artists would have believed Amazons originated.  Many earlier images of Amazons wear Persian and Scythian style clothing and I believe the weapon set has the same influences.

Given the Amazons' reputed origin, one would expect Scythian style clothing and, to the extent they found it usable, armament.  Their time as a significant power dates to the reign of Theseus in Athens, and Theseus appears to have ruled in the late Amarna period.  Their appearance in the Trojan War shortly thereafter was probably their last as a significant power.  In each case, they are operating around the periphery of the Black Sea littoral, so one would expect them to reflect the costumes and (apart from one signifcant aspect) the culture of that area.

Not having handled one (a double-headed axe, not a woman warrior) I do not know if the balance would be any better than the single-bladed version.  Perhaps one of our members does.

When you swing a single-bitted axe, the blade wants to turn the other way around in your hand because the balance point in not in line with your handle.  This is known as wobble, and those guys who chop or throw in competitions make a big deal of it.  It can be reduced by a counter-weight that puts the balance in line with the handle. This can be a poll (the hammer-like back on most axe blades) or a spike or another axe blade.  The blade will index better in your grip and bite true into your target.

Interesting to know; thanks, Paul.  I would see the adoption of the double-bitted axe as an intelligent choice by users who wish to maximise the effect of limited physical strength and not waste any on 'wobble'.  This is the kind of detail unlikely to occur to an artist but intriguingly consistent with women warrior combatants free to use their own choice of weaponry.

[Jim Webster]

If you want to increase armour piecing ability and reduce 'wobble' you'd go for a 'spike' not a bigger blade. Having a big blade on the 'back' as an alternative for dealing with unarmoured enemies and adding weight against the armoured makes sense.
Having two big blades doesn't

Outside Amazons, religious ceremonies and gods do we have and good evidence/illustrations of people using this double headed axe with the two big blades?

[Duncan Head]

If one begins from the standpoint of assuming Amazons were an artist's invention, one could easily come to this conclusion.  If on the other hand Amazons were at one point a historical phenomenon, the use of a double-bitted axe is easier to understand and does not require an imaginative classical artist thinking in modern terms.
...
Given the Amazons' reputed origin, one would expect Scythian style clothing and, to the extent they found it usable, armament.

The fact that the earliest Greek representations of Amazons show them in Greek garb, and that it is only later - only in the 5th century? - that they start showing up in Persian-Scythian clothing argues to my mind against their "Scythian" portrayal having any historical value. It seems to be a late grafting on to an older tradition.

[Erpingham]

I'm not convinced by Patrick's explanation.  It seems too modern.  It is hard for me to picture an artist sitting down and rationalising what sort of weapon would best suit a female warrior and coming down on a two-headed axe, which then became a standard way of depicting Amazons.

If one begins from the standpoint of assuming Amazons were an artist's invention, one could easily come to this conclusion.  If on the other hand Amazons were at one point a historical phenomenon, the use of a double-bitted axe is easier to understand and does not require an imaginative classical artist thinking in modern terms.

Even if we assume Amazons existed (or even an Amazon state existed), our evidence is presented by classical artists.  Unless you are suggesting that these artists visited Themiscyra or they had access to detailed costume notes by someone who had (now lost to us), they are using their imagination to recreate a picture of Amazons.  I would suggest they are using their artistic tropes for depicting people from the area the Amazons are supposed to have come from to do this.  I'm willing to accept a double-headed axe unknown as yet to archaeology existed in this area, alongside the more commonly illustrated type.  This does not require anyone, ancient or modern, to have to think what is the most effective weapon for a woman to use in hand-to-hand combat.

Their time as a significant power dates to the reign of Theseus in Athens, and Theseus appears to have ruled in the late Amarna period.  Their appearance in the Trojan War shortly thereafter was probably their last as a significant power.

In another thread you may wish to deploy your evidence for the existence of an Amazon state (though the appearance of Egyptian chronology in the legendary past of Athens doesn't bode well).  Individual female warriors seem well attested out on the Steppes and down to the Black Sea, an organised Amazon state less so.