Bagaudae Army List or Lack of It.

[David Kush]

Bagaudae, I wonder if this isn't an overlooked Army in the late 3rd century. It seems it was more successful than the Sparticus revolt.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagaudae?wprov=sfla1

[Jim Webster]

Bagaudae, I wonder if this isn't an overlooked Army in the late 3rd century. It seems it was more successful than the Sparticus revolt.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagaudae?wprov=sfla1

They've proved as elusive in the literature as they appear to have been to those sent to put them down 
I did have a prod about a while ago and it seems that there is discussion about what they actually were. I've even suggested that they were merely local administrations that quietly opted out of Central control.
Certainly I discovered nothing that would hint at numbers or organisation

[Anton]

I'd incline to your suggestion too Jim.  Re occupying Hill Forts and producing a coinage doesn't suggest a peasant insurrection t me.

[Imperial Dave]

I agree with both. From what I've read they were in control of areas from an administrative perspective and not as a looter/mob collection

[Duncan Head]

In addition, were all bagaudae the same? I'm sure I have come across the theory that the later 4th/5th century bagaudae were not the same phenomenon as the original 3rd-century movement.

[Jim Webster]

In addition, were all bagaudae the same? I'm sure I have come across the theory that the later 4th/5th century bagaudae were not the same phenomenon as the original 3rd-century movement.

From memory weren't the earlier ones more along the line of 'desperate peasants' and the later ones 'disadvantaged lower upper class who had last lands and privileges and faced bankruptcy under the Imperial taxation system?

[Erpingham]

Perhaps Bagaudae is a convenient catch-all, like Peasant Revolt?  General similarities but potential for considerable differences in detail?

Perhaps more pertinent is did Bagaudae fight set piece battles to derive lists from?

[Justin Swanton]

The problem is that all descriptions of the Bagaudae came from writers who were their sworn enemies, so it's difficult to get a balanced picture of what exactly they were. Writing from work and without any sources in front of me I suspect they were similar in character to the 'Armoricans' and essentially add up to landowners who became militarised to protect themselves from barbarian incursions. Hence a hypothetical army list would include the kind of troops such landowners could raise. A few cavalrymen and some militia infantry. Fighting tactics more hit-and-run than set piece battles. Ecdicius might be a type for this kind of 'army.'

I don't think there was much in the way of marauding peasant armies since there was no such thing as a free peasant in this time. Anyone living in the country was a colonus, a tenant of a powerful landowner and obligated to his lord. Any big decisions were made by the landowner.

This all makes abstraction of areas where imperial and regional authority had completely broken down, like parts of Spain. I suppose that in those areas bagaudae and bandits might be synonymous.

[Imperial Dave]

a bit like usurpers in say Britannia. I guess the catch all statement concerning armies is that you could include any or all revolts or such like under those headings (depending on the viewpoint of the 'legitimate' central authority)

[Jim Webster]

a bit like usurpers in say Britannia. I guess the catch all statement concerning armies is that you could include any or all revolts or such like under those headings (depending on the viewpoint of the 'legitimate' central authority)

In Egypt we have estate accounts where landowners are paying soldiers to train their estate security force.
Indeed somewhere there is a law where if a Roman soldier is 'away from the colours' for over a year you should dock his pay, so a lot of them were probably moonlighting in this sort of role

Jim

[Imperial Dave]

paper strength units....if some soldiery are clever they could in theory get double pay....

[Jim Webster]

paper strength units....if some soldiery are clever they could in theory get double pay....

What's not to like 

[Imperial Dave]

It has got me thinking though about, how do we put it, unofficial Roman army lists for the 3-5th C based around a loose premise of moonlighters/usurpers/local ragtag forces

[Jim Webster]

It has got me thinking though about, how do we put it, unofficial Roman army lists for the 3-5th C based around a loose premise of moonlighters/usurpers/local ragtag forces

I did do the army for Bishop Synesius of Cyrene, but there are a lot of his letters and it is possible to put together an army for the 100AP and 200 (maximum) lists

Actually when you get into these armies they are very diverse
Jim

[Ade G]

I seem to recall Halsall reckons that post-450's Bagaudae fought alongside the remnants of the local forces as the West faded. Always thought they would be like Limitani etc with some militia-level training who are quite good defending their homes but not likely to "campaign"