When did javelins 'go out of fashion'?

[Imperial Dave]

Been pondering this one. I thought the obvious answer would be when plate armour came onto the scene but wanted to see other people's thoughts.

[Andreas Johansson]

I expect they're still used in a few unfashionable corners of the world.

But as far as Europe and "serious" warfare are concerned, the most recent example I can offhand think of would be Galicians and Asturians at Seminara 1503. Duncan brought it up on the DBMM Yahoo list some years ago, with the comment that "it is all 'ancient' after all."

[Erpingham]

Been pondering this one. I thought the obvious answer would be when plate armour came onto the scene but wanted to see other people's thoughts.

I think you need to narrow the geography, Dave.  For example, assegais remained in widespread use in Africa to the end of the 19th century.

In Europe, there were still places where they were used into 16th century (e.g. Ireland).

Add :

Basque javelinman from Weiditz's Trachtenbuch 1530s

[Imperial Dave]

true Anthony....ok then the Western European arena of warfare. Also is it a gradual decline or a fairly abrupt reduction in the widespread use thereof?

[Anton]

In Ireland the widespread adoption of the Caliver during the Nine Years War pretty much displaced the Javelin.  Casting darts effectively was a skilled business with much training needed.  The Caliver could also beat armour and had a easier learning curve.  The transition seems to have been a rapid one.

[Imperial Dave]

thanks Stephen. Pretty late in Ireland then versus say mainland England?

[Mick Hession]

Still in use in the 1640s by some levies.

And England is not the mainland.

Cheers
Mick

[Erpingham]

thanks Stephen. Pretty late in Ireland then versus say mainland England?

About 500 years later   I don't think javelins were mainstream English weapons after 1066.  The Welsh continued to use them into the 13th century, so Welsh mercenaries in England may have used them.  Cornish "dagger men" seem to have been similar tactically to Welsh in 14th century so maybe javelins survived down there.

[Imperial Dave]

Still in use in the 1640s by some levies.

And England is not the mainland.

Cheers
Mick

apologies Mick, its a term I use frequently if erroneously on times

[Anton]

They did indeed Mick but no one any longer considered considered such men to be properly equipped for battle.

Didn't the Dutch use darts for naval fighting?  I seem to remember George Gush mentioning it.

[Mick Hession]

Indeed, hence my calling them levies. It is clear from Tyrone's correspondence that he considered traditional weapons obsolete in the 1590s so the last time they were used in any numbers was probably the 2nd Desmond revolt in the early 1580s, and even then there was an attempt to import modern weapons from Spain along with Papal mercenaries.

Cheers
Mick

[Nick Harbud]

My take on this is that javelins and other types of spears went out of fashion once muskets with effective socket bayonets became available.  The first being better than a javelin at long range and the latter being just as good in hand-to-hand combat. 

The only armies where one finds any sort of pointy stick from the 18^th century onwards tend to be those who could not lay their hands on sufficient muskets, such as Irish in the 1798 Great Rebellion or American armies during and immediately after the War of Independence.  However, these are generally noted as being 6-7 foot long spontoons or half-pikes rather than something you might throw at your enemy.

Incidentally, Mick is right about England not being the mainland.  Since the opening of the Channel Tunnel, Europe is no longer isolated. 

[PMBardunias]

true Anthony....ok then the Western European arena of warfare. Also is it a gradual decline or a fairly abrupt reduction in the widespread use thereof?

The renaissance weapons masters describe the throwing of spears- "throwing partisans"- which may have been more like heavy javelins.

https://mindhost.tumblr.com/post/143323097397/throwing-spears-is-hema-too

https://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Achille_Marozzo/Fourth_Book