Stonehenge: Did the stone circle originally stand in Wales?

[Imperial Dave]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56029203

breaking news.....

[Imperial Dave]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/12/dramatic-discovery-links-stonehenge-to-its-original-site-in-wales?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

guardian version

[Duncan Head]

I saw that - it's hard to believe, but I suppose not much more of a feat than transporting the stones the same distaance straight from the quarry. Maybe the Welsh stone circle was just the dealer's showroom.

[Erpingham]

I saw that - it's hard to believe, but I suppose not much more of a feat than transporting the stones the same distaance straight from the quarry. Maybe the Welsh stone circle was just the dealer's showroom.

One could perhaps dial down the "ritual" speculation a bit more.   Digging up ready shaped bluestones might be easier than quarrying new ones, or quicker.  In later times, reuse of materials from disused structures was common enough.

[Imperial Dave]

nicked....

[RichT]

It also confirms that the region was an important and densely settled area in Neolithic times until 3000 BC when activity seems to have ceased.

Prof Parker Pearson said: "It's as if they just vanished. Maybe most of the people migrated, taking their stones - their ancestral identities - with them."

Those of a more military historical frame of mind might speculate that the people of (what is now) Wiltshire conquered the people of (what is now) Pembrokeshire and carried away their stone circle as an act of dominance, like Edward I taking the Stone of Scone.  That might explain the depopulation of the region at least as well as migration does (why migrate from such a pleasant area?).

[Imperial Dave]

It also confirms that the region was an important and densely settled area in Neolithic times until 3000 BC when activity seems to have ceased.

Prof Parker Pearson said: "It's as if they just vanished. Maybe most of the people migrated, taking their stones - their ancestral identities - with them."

Those of a more military historical frame of mind might speculate that the people of (what is now) Wiltshire conquered the people of (what is now) Pembrokeshire and carried away their stone circle as an act of dominance, like Edward I taking the Stone of Scone.  That might explain the depopulation of the region at least as well as migration does (why migrate from such a pleasant area?).

yup....nicked

[Nick Harbud]

Just watched the TV documentary about this circle, which has a couple of theories for how the stones came to be moved.  One is that Merlin teleported the whole thing to Salisbury Plain.  Another is that the original location was such a desolate place that they had to move it to somewhere with better weather.  ("There was a lot of rain, the wind never stopped blowing and the students [doing the excavation work] were becoming rebellious.")  The whole programme is very enjoyable.

Incidentally, at one point the programme explains that the neolithic builders of the rings and other standing stones orginated in the middle east, migrating through Europe and up the west coast of the British Isles.  For an alternate narrative, one could always watch 'Britain's Ancient Capital: Secrets of Orkney' by Neil Oliver et al, who will cheerfully describe how it was all the other way around - it was Orcadians who brought farming, stone building and McEwans lager to the benighted Europeans.

I suppose you pays your licence fee and you takes your pick....   

Enjoy.

[Erpingham]

I did like the bit about Merlin.  Clearly a folk memory of the stones being brought from over the sea -  just a bit of geographical confusion between the Irish Sea and the Bristol Channel.  But then they decided to move the stones overland instead.  So the only point of contact was "the stones came from far away". 

[Imperial Dave]

Just watched the TV documentary about this circle, which has a couple of theories for how the stones came to be moved.  One is that Merlin teleported the whole thing to Salisbury Plain.  Another is that the original location was such a desolate place that they had to move it to somewhere with better weather.  ("There was a lot of rain, the wind never stopped blowing and the students [doing the excavation work] were becoming rebellious.")  The whole programme is very enjoyable.

Incidentally, at one point the programme explains that the neolithic builders of the rings and other standing stones orginated in the middle east, migrating through Europe and up the west coast of the British Isles.  For an alternate narrative, one could always watch 'Britain's Ancient Capital: Secrets of Orkney' by Neil Oliver et al, who will cheerfully describe how it was all the other way around - it was Orcadians who brought farming, stone building and McEwans lager to the benighted Europeans.

I suppose you pays your licence fee and you takes your pick....   

Enjoy.

thanks for the link 

[Nick Harbud]

I did like the bit about Merlin.  Clearly a folk memory of the stones being brought from over the sea -  just a bit of geographical confusion between the Irish Sea and the Bristol Channel.  But then they decided to move the stones overland instead.  So the only point of contact was "the stones came from far away".

My father witnessed the attempt in 2000 to transport a bluestone from Milford Haven to Bristol.  As everyone reckoned the neolithic types did not have boats large enough to carry a 3 tonne lump of rock, they decided that they must have slung such objects between two boats.  Whilst this works in relatively calm waters, such as a harbour, it does not work on the open sea.  Basically, the two vessels independantly bob up and down on the waves, leaving the whole contraption to fall apart in short order, which is exactly what happened in the experiment.  One wonders how the ancients constucted siege towers supported by two galleys without experiencing a similar fate.   

Incidentally, the TV programme demonstrated how easy it is to move bluestones overland by sled.  Apparently, all one needs is a sufficient supply of 13-year old children.   

[Erpingham]

Incidentally, the TV programme demonstrated how easy it is to move bluestones overland by sled.  Apparently, all one needs is a sufficient supply of 13-year old children.   

Absolutely.  The fact that a class of 13 year olds could move a small bluestone  25 yards across a lawn shows that moving dozens of them hundreds of miles through mountains and forests must have been a doddle  

[Anton]

I did like the bit about Merlin.  Clearly a folk memory of the stones being brought from over the sea -  just a bit of geographical confusion between the Irish Sea and the Bristol Channel.  But then they decided to move the stones overland instead.  So the only point of contact was "the stones came from far away".

Yes, that was interesting.  Also, the concept that a stone circle might be moved to another place and reassembled seems proven.  Why that might be done is open to interpretation.

[Imperial Dave]

a good luck charm, a religious overtone or just a bragging right.....

[Erpingham]

a good luck charm, a religious overtone or just a bragging right.....

Someone decided to source a set of stones for a monument on Salisbury Plain from the Gower Peninsular.  Given the known technological challenges, this is pretty remarkable.  Why they did this is unknowable but it must have been important to them.  It must have taken an enormous commitment of resources in personnel and time.  It was almost certainly dangerous - moving big rocks over land or water still is.  It probably involved engineering problem solving and innovation on a big scale.  Whatever the religious and social aspects, it's pretty impressive.