Author Topic: Gothic wagons  (Read 92 times)

Jim Webster

  • Society Member
  • Posts: 4647
  • Country: 00
    • Tallis Steelyard. The jumbled musings of Tallis Steelyard
Gothic wagons
« on: February 21, 2021, 11:19:14 AM »
In 334 there is an interesting article about Gothic Wagon Laagers
I don't disagree with the article but it raised a question for me, where did they get the wagons from? Did the Romans ferry them across the Danube for them? Even if the tribes brought them across themselves it would have been an interesting problem to tackle.

Indeed if these are the people who were selling their children into slavery for food, buying dog meat etc, it is probably they'd have eaten their own draught animals first?

Obviously after a year of so being semi-settled their own craftsmen would have been able to get their act together and build genuine 'Gothic' wagons, but were these laagers just composed of Roman farm carts?
  • Jim Webster

aligern

  • Former Officer
  • Society Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2696
  • Country: gb
Re: Gothic wagons
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2021, 03:36:13 PM »
It would be interesting to know what sort of wheeled transport Roman farms had.  The Goths had looted widely before Adrianople and would have had many opportunities to acquire carts and draught aninals. The article is good,, but I felt that  once again we ran into the marshy ground of tge credibility of Ancient numbers and  guesswork as to how many people were allocated to each wagon. Jim makes a good point, if the wagons are two wheeled then the size of  the  circle can be much less.
What would be in a wagon?  Food, water,  tools, both  agricultural and of a trade a plough in some, weapons, particularly arrows and javelins, bedding, spare clothing., cooking utensils and plates, platters, looted items. I’d have thought a large four wheeled wagonbwoukd be good for 20 people
Roy

  • Roy Boss

Duncan Head

  • Former Officer
  • Society Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4425
  • Country: england
Re: Gothic wagons
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2021, 04:08:01 PM »
It would be interesting to know what sort of wheeled transport Roman farms had.

Perhaps Roman Traction Systems is a good place to start.
  • Duncan Head

Jim Webster

  • Society Member
  • Posts: 4647
  • Country: 00
    • Tallis Steelyard. The jumbled musings of Tallis Steelyard
Re: Gothic wagons
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2021, 04:19:17 PM »
It would be interesting to know what sort of wheeled transport Roman farms had.

Perhaps Roman Traction Systems is a good place to start.

He seems to concentrate entirely on equid drawn and doesn't mention oxen?
  • Jim Webster

Duncan Head

  • Former Officer
  • Society Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4425
  • Country: england
Re: Gothic wagons
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2021, 04:57:44 PM »
True, she does - it's partly a response to and commentary on Lefebvre des Noëttes, who was writing mostly about horses. I did do a quick search for Roman Thrace and oxen without turning up much.
  • Duncan Head

Jim Webster

  • Society Member
  • Posts: 4647
  • Country: 00
    • Tallis Steelyard. The jumbled musings of Tallis Steelyard
Re: Gothic wagons
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2021, 05:28:26 PM »
True, she does - it's partly a response to and commentary on Lefebvre des Noëttes, who was writing mostly about horses. I did do a quick search for Roman Thrace and oxen without turning up much.

I've found pictures of ox carts from other parts of the Roman world, the Villa Romana del Casale is Sicilian and has a nice one in the mosaics
  • Jim Webster

Erpingham

  • Global Moderator
  • Society Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6811
  • Country: gb
  • Interests: Medieval warfare, Old School, home made rules
Re: Gothic wagons
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2021, 05:55:06 PM »
Here's another with a similar low ladder side and 8 spoked wheel as the one illustrated crewed by Dacians in the article.



It suggests to me that illustration shows a Roman-style transport vehicle.  Whether such wagons would be used by Goths, or how different Goth wagons might be to Roman ones, I don't know.

  • Anthony Clipsom