Iberian or Hiberian ?

[dwkay57]

In the WRG Army Lists Book 1 (1981), the Armenian army (list 44) can have Iberian allies in the form of heavy (or extra heavy) lancers plus infantry with long spears.

In the DBM Army Lists Book 2 (1993), the Early Armenian army (list 27) can also have very similarly described Iberian troops.

In the DBMM Army Lists Book 2 (2016), the Early Armenian and Gordyene army list (list 28), they appear to now be known as Hiberians.

Is there any reason why they are now not dropping their "H"s?

[Duncan Head]

Dunno why it changed, perhaps to differentiate the Caucasian lot from the Spanish ones, but both spellings are correct Latin.

[dwkay57]

Thanks Duncan. I assumed it wasn't a typo.

That particular army list does seem to have changed quite a bit from earlier versions.

[dwkay57]

Should the Armenian Albanians also become "Halbanians" to differentiate them from the inhabitants of where Albania - the state - is?

I note that in the DBMM lists they've acquired some form of very heavy cavalry which wasn't present in earlier versions. The few words on them suggests they might be heavily armoured but just with javelins / light spears. Does anyone know anymore than this?

[Duncan Head]

Should the Armenian Albanians also become "Halbanians" to differentiate them from the inhabitants of where Albania - the state - is?

Not the way Latin works, I fear.

I note that in the DBMM lists they've acquired some form of very heavy cavalry which wasn't present in earlier versions. The few words on them suggests they might be heavily armoured but just with javelins / light spears. Does anyone know anymore than this?

Briefly - Caucasian Albanian cataphracts are mentioned by Strabo. The javelin thing is from an account of an Albanian prince throwing a javelin, I think from Plutarch's Pompey. Cataphract + javelin = Kn(Inferior), like late Achaemenid armoured-horse cavalry - that was the theory. The logic is weak, partly because we don't know that said prince was fighting as a cataphract at the time.

Albanians and (H)iberians  remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.

[aligern]

Aspiring Albanians rise to be Hiberians.
Roy

[Andreas Johansson]

Given the inconsistent writing of H in Late Latin, a variant Halbania would have been unsurprising, but it doesn't seem to be attested.

Just for fun, note that in Medieval Latin, "Albania" can also mean Scotland (apparently because the inhabitants of Alba are Albani, and such obviously live in Albania).

[Swampster]

I note that in the DBMM lists they've acquired some form of very heavy cavalry which wasn't present in earlier versions. The few words on them suggests they might be heavily armoured but just with javelins / light spears. Does anyone know anymore than this?

Briefly - Caucasian Albanian cataphracts are mentioned by Strabo. The javelin thing is from an account of an Albanian prince throwing a javelin, I think from Plutarch's Pompey. Cataphract + javelin = Kn(Inferior), like late Achaemenid armoured-horse cavalry - that was the theory. The logic is weak, partly because we don't know that said prince was fighting as a cataphract at the time.

Albanians and (H)iberians  remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.

(Albanians) He found them drawn up on the river Abas, sixty thousand foot and twelve thousand horse, but wretchedly armed, and clad for the most part in the skins of wild beasts. They were led by a brother of the king, named Cosis, 3 who as soon as the fighting was at close quarters, rushed upon Pompey himself and smote him with a javelin on the fold of his breastplate; but Pompey ran him through the body and killed him. Plut. Pomp. 35

(Albanians)
But still they fight both on foot and on horseback, both in light armour (= psiloi) and in full armour (kataphraktoi), like the Armenians. (Strabo 11.4.4)

They send forth a greater army than that of the Iberians; for they equip sixty thousand infantry and twenty‑two thousand8 horsemen, the number with which they risked their all against Pompey. Against outsiders the nomads join with the Albanians in war, just as they do with the Iberians, and for the same reasons; and besides, they often attack the people, and consequently prevent them from farming. The Albanians use javelins and bows; and they wear breastplates (thorakes) and large oblong shields, and helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians. (Strabo XI 4.5)

(Iberians)
Now the plain of the Iberians is inhabited by people who are rather inclined to farming and to peace, and they dress after both the Armenian and the Median fashion; but the major, or warlike, portion, occupy the mountainous territory, living like the Scythians and the Sarmatians, of whom they are both neighbours and kinsmen; however, they engage also in farming. And they assemble many tens of thousands, both from their own people and from the Scythians and Sarmatians, whenever anything alarming occurs. (Strabo XI 3.3)


There were Iberian 'longchophoroi' with Tigranes against Lucullus.

Also see the http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=4325.msg55900#msg55900 discussion of a possible (H)iberian cavalryman.


I sure there was a discussion either here or another place about excavations showing body armour but a dearth of helmets, the implication being that they really were wearing non-metallic headgear.

I wonder if the 'skins of wild beasts' is shaggy caveman chic or closer to the various types of rawhide etc. armour of the Skythians (especially bearing in mind the noted links to the steppe dwellers).

[Jim Webster]

Given the inconsistent writing of H in Late Latin, a variant Halbania would have been unsurprising, but it doesn't seem to be attested.

Just for fun, note that in Medieval Latin, "Albania" can also mean Scotland (apparently because the inhabitants of Alba are Albani, and such obviously live in Albania).

Didn't Scotland tend to be Alba, which apparently is  Gaelic

[dwkay57]

Thanks guys, this is interesting.

A field army of 70k plus seems a bit high for the (H)albanians as this would push their overall population towards 1/3 million in an area about the size of Wales. That seems high to me. The Penguin Atlas(es) of population history suggest there might have been about 1 million across the whole of that region by 200AD.

I was going to add a few hundred light (H)albanian cavalry to my Armenian army but sounds as if I may need to up it slightly and include some heavier types. If as discussed elsewhere, that when Romans said kataphractoi they really meant what we used to know as HC then I might be able to cobble something suitable from some left over figures.

[Swampster]

I was going to add a few hundred light (H)albanian cavalry to my Armenian army but sounds as if I may need to up it slightly and include some heavier types. If as discussed elsewhere, that when Romans said kataphractoi they really meant what we used to know as HC then I might be able to cobble something suitable from some left over figures.

It does say like the Armenians, I think it is in Plutarch's Antony that he says the Armenians are like the Parthian

I forgot there is an even better confirmation for Albanian armoured horses - it is in Strabo's bit on Armenia
"Artavasdes, at the time when he invaded Media with Antony, showed him, apart from the rest of the cavalry, six thousand horses drawn up in battle array in full armour. Not only the Medes and the Armenians pride themselves upon this kind of cavalry, but also the Albanians, for they too use horses in full armour." Str 11.14.9
Ἀρταουάσδης δὲ Ἀντωνίῳ χωρὶς τῆς ἄλλης ἱππείας αὐτὴν τὴν κατάφρακτον ἑξακισχιλίαν ἵππον ἐκτάξας ἐπέδειξεν, ἡνίκα εἰς τὴν Μηδίαν ἐνέβαλε σὺν αὐτῷ. ταύτης δὲ τῆς ἱππείας οὐ Μῆδοι μόνοι καὶ Ἀρμένιοι ζηλωταὶ γεγόνασιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ Ἀλβανοί: καὶ γὰρ ἐκεῖνοι καταφράκτοις χρῶνται. - so horses are specifically mentioned, not a translator's addition.

[dwkay57]

Thanks Peter - of course that does mean I'll have to invest in some new figures....

[Andreas Johansson]

Albanians and (H)iberians  remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.

What should Hiberian and Caucasian Albanian army lists look like?

[Duncan Head]

Albanians and (H)iberians  remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.

What should Hiberian and Caucasian Albanian army lists look like?

Oh come on, that's asking for a whole article! There was one on Iberians in a back issue, long time ago, by Bernd Lehnhoff. And I have the attached, taken from a document I wrote in 1995 but never went further with.

[DBS]

Thanks Peter - of course that does mean I'll have to invest in some new figures....

For what very little it is worth, I use some Baccus Late Achaemenid armoured cavalry for Albanian "cataphracts":

1) the dodgy logic noted by Duncan re "horse armour" and "javelin";
2) for a slightly backward, less wealthy region, region, less extensive horse armour than later became fashionable / possible, with a huge hand wave of the gap of three to five centuries between the Achaemenid period and my period of interest for the Albanians.
3) the excuse to use a different and distinctive figure;
4) they are only 6mm, so who cares.

Likewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.