Iberian or Hiberian ?

[Duncan Head]

Likewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.

For Iberian lancers, I would recommend looking at Figure 92 in Iberia and Rome. There's also bits of scale armour in some of the other plates.

[Duncan Head]

I sure there was a discussion either here or another place about excavations showing body armour but a dearth of helmets, the implication being that they really were wearing non-metallic headgear.

That might be a discussion of the Iberia and Rome paper linked in my previous post; there are quite a few bits of scale armour reported from the Iberian site at Dedoplis Gora, but no helmets.

[Swampster]

I sure there was a discussion either here or another place about excavations showing body armour but a dearth of helmets, the implication being that they really were wearing non-metallic headgear.

That might be a discussion of the Iberia and Rome paper linked in my previous post; there are quite a few bits of scale armour reported from the Iberian site at Dedoplis Gora, but no helmets.

Yes, I think that is it.
"We are forced to literally believe Strabo's information that the Iberians, just like the Albanians,
used helmets made of animals' skin."

[Swampster]

Likewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.

For Iberian lancers, I would recommend looking at Figure 92 in Iberia and Rome. There's also bits of scale armour in some of the other plates.

Though the Iberian 'lancers' of Plutarch are longchophoroi, which usually seem to be foot. There are times where it is used for cavalry though (Diodorus does, I think), and the context of the Iberians fighting alongside Mardian horse archers could suit lighter foot or cavalry.

Plutarch says Tigranes relied on the Mardians and the Iberian lancers the most of his mercenaries. The MM list makes the foot superior Auxilia; though I don't know how much is down to this description of reliability and how much is an equipment based one of 'thureos =AxS.

[DBS]

Likewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.

For Iberian lancers, I would recommend looking at Figure 92 in Iberia and Rome. There's also bits of scale armour in some of the other plates.

Thank you - legs look very Iranian...  certainly seems a good match for the Kn(F) or similar thinking.

[Duncan Head]

Though the Iberian 'lancers' of Plutarch are longchophoroi, which usually seem to be foot.

Well yes, but I meant the cavalry lancers - since David was talking about using xystophoroi. The Sarmatian parallel that Strabo draws, plus the Dedoplis Gora figure mentioned, make kontos-using lancers look pretty likely. Wasn't thinking about the longchophoroi at all.

Plutarch says Tigranes relied on the Mardians and the Iberian lancers the most of his mercenaries. The MM list makes the foot superior Auxilia; though I don't know how much is down to this description of reliability and how much is an equipment based one of 'thureos =AxS.

From my vague memory of the discussion, it was the Plutarch quote that did it. I'm not sure anyone connected Strabo's Albanian thureoi with the Iberians at that stage.

The only representations of Iberian infantry I know of have smallish cane or wicker-looking shields

[Swampster]

The only representations of Iberian infantry I know of have smallish cane or wicker-looking shields

Interesting. The figures I first used for Iberians were some of Xth legions Persians carrying a small cane shield. Looks like I accidentally may have hit the right look with the shield (though I think they had a Phrygian cap rather than whatever that is. I hope it is a boars' tusk helmet ) .

[Andreas Johansson]

Albanians and (H)iberians  remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.

What should Hiberian and Caucasian Albanian army lists look like?

Oh come on, that's asking for a whole article! There was one on Iberians in a back issue, long time ago, by Bernd Lehnhoff. And I have the attached, taken from a document I wrote in 1995 but never went further with.

The question as intended could have been answered more impressionistically than by providing actual lists. I'm sure, though, that Justin would love an article on wargaming Hiberia and Albania

But thank you, those DBM lists were more than I was hoping for

[Duncan Head]

(though I think they had a Phrygian cap rather than whatever that is. I hope it is a boars' tusk helmet ) .

It might be "helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians". Maybe padded or quilted leather? Or just an artistic impression of a hairstyle?

[DBS]

I would have said hairstyle, except for the apparent fillets/rims and nasal guards...

[dwkay57]

And it all started with such a simple question....

Thanks for all the responses, especially Duncan.

As David says at 6mm you can get away with quite a bit. My (H)Iberian cavalry are the Baccus Sarmatian on unarmoured horse with the bow case filed down a bit. My (H)Albanian cavalry were going to look more Celtic (one post mentioned an oval shield) and armed with javelins, but if they were on armoured horses I might have to buy some more Parthians (some of whom have leggings as opposed to armoured trousers) and potentially cut their spears down and glue on shields and paint their helmets a non-metallic colour.

PS. Isn't knights (inferior) a hollywood casting request?

[Swampster]

My (H)Albanian cavalry were going to look more Celtic (one post mentioned an oval shield) and armed with javelins, but if they were on armoured horses I might have to buy some more Parthians (some of whom have leggings as opposed to armoured trousers) and potentially cut their spears down and glue on shields and paint their helmets a non-metallic colour.

PS. Isn't knights (inferior) a hollywood casting request?

I think the oval shield on the cavalry fight plaque is the enemy - Roman perhaps.

[Duncan Head]

My (H)Albanian cavalry were going to look more Celtic (one post mentioned an oval shield) and armed with javelins, but if they were on armoured horses I might have to buy some more Parthians (some of whom have leggings as opposed to armoured trousers) and potentially cut their spears down and glue on shields and paint their helmets a non-metallic colour.

PS. Isn't knights (inferior) a hollywood casting request?

I think the oval shield on the cavalry fight plaque is the enemy - Roman perhaps.

The author of the Iberia and Rome book certainly thought that the shielded cavalryman was a Roman - but then, they also thought that the victorious lancer was a Parthian, not an Iberian. I am inclined to think that the lancer is probably Iberian; in which case the oval-shielded enemy _might_ be an Albanian....

[Jim Webster]

Likewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.

For Iberian lancers, I would recommend looking at Figure 92 in Iberia and Rome. There's also bits of scale armour in some of the other plates.

That figure reminds me of the Irregular Miniatures Bactrian Greek cavalry

[DBS]

The author of the Iberia and Rome book certainly thought that the shielded cavalryman was a Roman - but then, they also thought that the victorious lancer was a Parthian, not an Iberian. I am inclined to think that the lancer is probably Iberian; in which case the oval-shielded enemy _might_ be an Albanian....

That would be entirely logical, though one thought occurred to me overnight, that is not so much a challenge to your reasonable supposition, more a challenge to potentially lazy thinking or assumptions by the likes of myself.

The Iberians are on the west of the Caucasus region, Albanians on the east.  The chap with the kontos in the plaque looks a tad Iranian, at least in his legwear.  The chap on the right has a spined shield.  Now, the lazy thinking would be that the chaps to the west, on the coast of the Black Sea, and Asia Minor not that far away, are in the Hellenistic orbit, even if very rustic and peripheral, so if anyone in the Caucasus was likely to be sporting a spined shield, might it not be the Iberians?  Equally, the Albanians squeezed up against the Caspian, with easiest communications lying to their south into Media, might be a bit more Iranian...  yet, the lancer is the victorious combatant, so for an Iberian possession, as Duncan says, seems most likely to be the Iberian.  I do not know enough about Armenian dress during this period - maybe they were more Parthianised than I imagine, having an Arsacid dynasty after all, and therefore a transmitter of Iranian styles to their northern Iberian neighbours?

I suppose the other option is that the plaque shows neither Iberian or Albanian, but is an external gifted artwork from the Parthians or similar.