The way Colchester lost its status as England's first capital city

[Imperial Dave]

https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/way-colchester-lost-status-englands-5780321

very low level article but at least they got Boudicca right

[Justin Swanton]

It does highlight Colchester - Camulodunum - as the natural base - Camelot - for a roving cavalry commander trying to secure post-Roman Britain against out of control pagan mercenaries...

[Imperial Dave]

 

[Erpingham]

It does highlight Colchester - Camulodunum - as the natural base - Camelot - for a roving cavalry commander trying to secure post-Roman Britain against out of control pagan mercenaries...

Only if you've not read it.

[Imperial Dave]

It does highlight Colchester - Camulodunum - as the natural base - Camelot - for a roving cavalry commander trying to secure post-Roman Britain against out of control pagan mercenaries...

Only if you've not read it.

doesnt matter....Justin think's everything has a connotation with the above 

[Justin Swanton]

It does highlight Colchester - Camulodunum - as the natural base - Camelot - for a roving cavalry commander trying to secure post-Roman Britain against out of control pagan mercenaries...

Only if you've not read it.

doesnt matter....Justin think's everything has a connotation with the above 

Well I do think Camulodunum is the best site for Arthur's base: its fortifications have a large area not filled with buildings but ideal as a secure place for several hundred horses, and it was perfectly situated between the Jute/Saxon/Angle enclaves in Norfolk and Kent. If you want to contain the barbarian threat, that's the place from which to do it.

I'm sooooo tempted to write a novel about it. Arthur and Syagrius, the last Roman commanders in the crumbling West. Grey skies, a wet breeze, and gazing at the grey seas on horseback from the cliffs. It's been done to death...maybe not...

[Imperial Dave]

substitute Ambrosius Aurelianus and it'll work   

[Justin Swanton]

substitute Ambrosius Aurelianus and it'll work 

No, include him!

[Erpingham]

Well I do think Camoludunum is the best site for Arthur's base: its fortifications have a large area not filled with buildings but ideal as a secure place for several hundred horses, and it was perfectly situated between the Jute/Saxon/Angle enclaves in Norfolk and Kent. If you want to contain the barbarian threat, that's the place from which to do it.

It's an argument you can make if you wish but Camelot (in various spellings) is only mentioned in the 12th century and remains a subsiduary location in Arthurian literature for some time, so there is no real tradition to draw on.

[Duncan Head]

Can we confidently state that Camulodunum was still in Romano-British hands at the most likely dates for Arthur, or would it already have been Anglo-Saxon? Nennius, for what he's worth, clearly sets Vortigern's ceding of the East Sex before Arthur. Unless you think Arthur retook it, of course.

[Justin Swanton]

Well I do think Camoludunum is the best site for Arthur's base: its fortifications have a large area not filled with buildings but ideal as a secure place for several hundred horses, and it was perfectly situated between the Jute/Saxon/Angle enclaves in Norfolk and Kent. If you want to contain the barbarian threat, that's the place from which to do it.

It's an argument you can make if you wish but Camelot (in various spellings) is only mentioned in the 12th century and remains a subsiduary location in Arthurian literature for some time, so there is no real tradition to draw on.

Sure. There aren't enough hard facts to do a serious history of Arthur, just traces here and tantalising clues there that allow for endless speculation. It's a novelist's dream.

But, donning the historian's hat for a moment, "Camelot" had to come from somewhere - I think it came from Welsh authors? - and even though buried for centuries, it may well have an historical provenance, and it fits so neatly with Camulodunum: right place, right time, right archaeological ruins.

[Erpingham]

But, donning the historian's hat for a moment, "Camelot" had to come from somewhere - I think it came from Welsh authors?

No, it appears from nowhere in 12th France.  It doesn't feature in the insular tradition until introduced from France.  Even when it is introduced, it is a secondary location, separate from the capital Caerleon and there is no mention of a military function.

We should also note Chretien of Troyes , who first mentions Camelot, has form for inventing new parts of the Arthurian cycle - he gives us the tale of Lancelot and Guinevere.

[Justin Swanton]

Can we confidently state that Camulodunum was still in Romano-British hands at the most likely dates for Arthur, or would it already have been Anglo-Saxon? Nennius, for what he's worth, clearly sets Vortigern's ceding of the East Sex before Arthur. Unless you think Arthur retook it, of course.

Apparently St Germanus did:

The king being a captive, purchased his redemption, by delivering up the three provinces of East, South, and Middle Sex, besides other districts at the option of his betrayers.

St. Germanus admonished Vortigern to turn to the true God, and abstain from all unlawful intercourse with his daughter; but the unhappy wretch fled for refuge to the province Guorthegirnaim, so called from his own name, where he concealed himself with his wives: but St. Germanus followed him with all the British clergy, and upon a rock prayed for his sins during forty days and forty nights.

The blessed man was unanimously chosen commander against the Saxons. And then, not by the clang of trumpets, but by praying, singing hallelujah, and by the cries of the army to God, the enemies were routed, and driven even to the sea.

[Erpingham]

Isn't this a reference to the Alleluia Victory?  What evidence do you have to connect this to Colchester?

[Justin Swanton]

Isn't this a reference to the Alleluia Victory?  What evidence do you have to connect this to Colchester?

Just that the Saxons were booted out of the territory Vortigern ceded to them, which territory included Colchester.

Which makes things neater, come to think of it. The Saxons are cleared out of Essex, Middlesex and Sussex. That's all the territory around Kent (which apparently remains in Saxon hands). Arthur appears on the scene after the death of Vortigern, which happens after St Germanus' victory:

Again Vortigern ignominiously flew from St. Germanus to the kingdom of the Dimetae, where, on the river Towy, he built a castle, which he named Cair Guothergirn. The saint, as usual, followed him there, and with his clergy fasted and prayed to the Lord three days, and as many nights. On the third night, at the third hour, fire fell suddenly from heaven, and totally burned the castle. Vortigern, the daughter of Hengist, his other wives, and all the inhabitants, both men and women, miserably perished: such was the end of this unhappy king, as we find written in the life of St. Germanus.
.......
St. Germanus, after his (Vortigern's) death, returned into his own country. At that time, the Saxons greatly increased in Britain, both in strength and numbers. And Octa, after the death of his father Hengist, came from the sinistral part of the island to the kingdom of Kent, and from him have proceeded all the kings of that province, to the present period.

Then it was, that the magnanimous Arthur, with all the kings and military force of Britain, fought against the Saxons. And though there were many more noble than himself, yet he was twelve times chosen their commander, and was as often conqueror.

So Arthur happens on the scene when the Saxons control Kent only. If he inserts himself between the Kentish Saxons and the Angles of East Anglia he is best positioned to respond to any threats from either of them, and prevent them from uniting forces. Militarily Colchester makes good sense.