The way Colchester lost its status as England's first capital city

[Erpingham]

Isn't this a reference to the Alleluia Victory?  What evidence do you have to connect this to Colchester?

Just that the Saxons were booted out of the territory Vortigern ceded to them, which territory included Colchester.

If we go to Constantius' account (which is closer in time to the event)

Meanwhile the enemy had learned of the practices and appearance of the camp. They promised themselves an easy victory over practically disarmed troops and pressed on in haste. But their approach was discovered by scouts and, when the Easter solemnities had been celebrated, the army--the greater part of it fresh from the font--began to take up their weapons and prepare for battle and Germanus announced that he would be their general [dux proelii, "leader for this battle"]. He chose some light-armed troops and made a tour of the outworks. In the direction from which the enemy were expected he saw a valley enclosed by steep mountains. Here he stationed an army on a new model, under his own command.

Chapter Eighteen

By now the savage host of the enemy was close at hand and Germanus rapidly circulated an order that all should repeat in unison the call he would give as a battle-cry. Then, while the enemy were still secure in the belief that their approach was unexpected, the bishops three times chanted the Alleluia. All, as one man, repeated it and the shout they raised rang through the air and was repeated many times in the confined space between the mountains.

The enemy were panic-stricken, thinking that the surrounding rocks and the very sky itself were falling on them. Such was their terror that no effort of their feet seemed enough to save them. They fled in every direction, throwing away their weapons and thankful if they could save at least their skins. Many threw themselves into the river which they had just crossed at their ease, and were drowned in it.

Thus the British army looked on at its revenge without striking a blow, idle spectators of the victory achieved. The booty strewn everywhere was collected; the pious soldiery obtained the spoils of a victory from heaven. The bishops were elated at the rout of the enemy without bloodshed and a victory gained by faith and not by force."

So Germanus delivers a victory in a valley in the mountains.  Essex has very few mountains and the battle is usually placed in Wales, which is where Germanus is in the previous paragraph of the (presumably) Nennius quote.  However, Constantius could exaggerate the mountains bit and a valley in hilly country somewhere else could be meant.

The question may be whether we can infer widespread reconquest (or re-establishment of Romanised rule) from a single field action, the scale and location of which is unclear.  perhaps some of the period experts live Dave or Stephen would like to offer a view?

[Justin Swanton]

Isn't this a reference to the Alleluia Victory?  What evidence do you have to connect this to Colchester?

Just that the Saxons were booted out of the territory Vortigern ceded to them, which territory included Colchester.

If we go to Constantius' account (which is closer in time to the event)

Meanwhile the enemy had learned of the practices and appearance of the camp. They promised themselves an easy victory over practically disarmed troops and pressed on in haste. But their approach was discovered by scouts and, when the Easter solemnities had been celebrated, the army--the greater part of it fresh from the font--began to take up their weapons and prepare for battle and Germanus announced that he would be their general [dux proelii, "leader for this battle"]. He chose some light-armed troops and made a tour of the outworks. In the direction from which the enemy were expected he saw a valley enclosed by steep mountains. Here he stationed an army on a new model, under his own command.

Chapter Eighteen

By now the savage host of the enemy was close at hand and Germanus rapidly circulated an order that all should repeat in unison the call he would give as a battle-cry. Then, while the enemy were still secure in the belief that their approach was unexpected, the bishops three times chanted the Alleluia. All, as one man, repeated it and the shout they raised rang through the air and was repeated many times in the confined space between the mountains.

The enemy were panic-stricken, thinking that the surrounding rocks and the very sky itself were falling on them. Such was their terror that no effort of their feet seemed enough to save them. They fled in every direction, throwing away their weapons and thankful if they could save at least their skins. Many threw themselves into the river which they had just crossed at their ease, and were drowned in it.

Thus the British army looked on at its revenge without striking a blow, idle spectators of the victory achieved. The booty strewn everywhere was collected; the pious soldiery obtained the spoils of a victory from heaven. The bishops were elated at the rout of the enemy without bloodshed and a victory gained by faith and not by force."

So Germanus delivers a victory in a valley in the mountains.  Essex has very few mountains and the battle is usually placed in Wales, which is where Germanus is in the previous paragraph of the (presumably) Nennius quote.  However, Constantius could exaggerate the mountains bit and a valley in hilly country somewhere else could be meant.

The question may be whether we can infer widespread reconquest (or re-establishment of Romanised rule) from a single field action, the scale and location of which is unclear.  perhaps some of the period experts live Dave or Stephen would like to offer a view?

Whilst waiting for Dave and Stephen, let me just add that this was Roman Britain, i.e. the road network was still in pristine condition and an army could travel far before being brought to battle, as did the barbarian armies on the continent. The Saxons could have gone anywhere in Britain looking to defeat St Germanus and he could have fought them anywhere. The point is that after the victory they were "driven even to the sea". They weren't completely booted from Britain, but they came close.

Britain in any case isn't a big place: about 150 miles from Kent to Wales. Not a major campaign in anyone's book.

[Duncan Head]

From "driven even to the sea" to "expelled from all their recent conquests" is a bit of a leap.

[Justin Swanton]

From "driven even to the sea" to "expelled from all their recent conquests" is a bit of a leap.

It seems pretty equivalent. This bit in Nennius is interesting:

"St. Germanus, after his death, returned into his own country. At that time, the Saxons greatly increased in Britain, both in strength and numbers. And Octa, after the death of his father Hengist, came from the sinistral part of the island to the kingdom of Kent, and from him have proceeded all the kings of that province, to the present period."

So the Saxons increase in numbers, i.e. they don't disappear and return later. The implication is that they linger somewhere and then bolster their numbers later on. Kent was actually Jute but it seems the Saxons, Angles and Jutes worked together at least to some extent, since Hengist and Horsa called them all over to Britain. Possibly the Jutes let the Saxon survivors shelter in Kent?

[Erpingham]

It seems pretty equivalent.

Not really.  It could simply mean the raiding party he defeated was driven back to their ships.  Without knowing scale, location or context, its reading too much into a stock phrase,

So the Saxons increase in numbers, i.e. they don't disappear and return later. The implication is that they linger somewhere and then bolster their numbers later on. Kent was actually Jute but it seems the Saxons, Angles and Jutes worked together at least to some extent, since Hengist and Horsa called them all over to Britain. Possibly the Jutes let the Saxon survivors shelter in Kent?

Or perhaps their penetration West was stopped and they fell back to the Saxon country (whatever the extent of that was at the time).  Reading the affair as an overreach which was stopped, causing a pause in expansion and a period of consolidation, seems more likely, to me at least.  Would Nennius not have mentioned a re-establishment of Roman authority in the Saxon areas if he believed it happened, making St Germanus' achievements even more blessed?

[Justin Swanton]

It seems pretty equivalent.

Not really.  It could simply mean the raiding party he defeated was driven back to their ships.  Without knowing scale, location or context, its reading too much into a stock phrase,

According to the descriptions of Nennius and Constantius this was a good deal more than a raid.

So the Saxons increase in numbers, i.e. they don't disappear and return later. The implication is that they linger somewhere and then bolster their numbers later on. Kent was actually Jute but it seems the Saxons, Angles and Jutes worked together at least to some extent, since Hengist and Horsa called them all over to Britain. Possibly the Jutes let the Saxon survivors shelter in Kent?

Or perhaps their penetration West was stopped and they fell back to the Saxon country (whatever the extent of that was at the time).  Reading the affair as an overreach which was stopped, causing a pause in expansion and a period of consolidation, seems more likely, to me at least.  Would Nennius not have mentioned a re-establishment of Roman authority in the Saxon areas if he believed it happened, making St Germanus' achievements even more blessed?

Nennius is clear that this was a reaction by the Romano-british under St Germanus' leadership against the treason of Vortigern who ceded large tracts of land to the Saxons just to save his own skin. Vortigern was the Saxons' man on account of his marriage to Hengist's daughter. He fell from favour after the arrival of St Germanus and the Saxon offensive looks like an attempt to come to his aid after he fled to Guorthegirnaim. Where is Guorthegirnaim BTW? Anyone know?

Nennius mentions that the Jutes and the Saxons fought together:

"At length Vortimer, the son of Vortigern, valiantly fought against Hengist, Horsa, and his people; drove them to the isle of Thanet, and thrice enclosed them with it, and beset them on the western side. The Saxons now despatched deputies to Germany to solicit large reinforcements, and an additional number of ships: having obtained these, they fought against the kings and princes of Britain, and sometimes extended their boundaries by victory, and sometimes were conquered and driven back."

So the last gasp Saxon/Jute holdout is Thanet. After a defeat they were able to whistle up reinforcements from there and resume the offensive.

[Erpingham]

According to the descriptions of Nennius and Constantius this was a good deal more than a raid.

Perhaps but it isn't clear even what an "army" might consist of at this period.  In this case, operating so far from home, the households of a few warlords perhaps?

Where "home" was might be better answered with archaeology than from Nennius but I admit I'm not up to date on the archaeology.   

Where is Guorthegirnaim BTW? Anyone know?

Mid Wales
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwrtheyrnion

[Justin Swanton]

I get the impression an army was in the high hundreds to low thousands - Arthur"s unit alone killed hundreds of Saxons at Badon.

Mid-Wales is perfect - just the place for a Saxon relief force to march to and get trounced in the mountains.

[Tim]

Justin, you write the epic novel, quoting your sources and we will let Holly review it. Everyone else that disagrees with your interps can write a letter to Guardroom - that is the next 337 issues of Slingshot sorted...

[Imperial Dave]

what did I miss....?

[Justin Swanton]

what did I miss....?

We're missing the Welsh perspective. 

[Justin Swanton]

Justin, you write the epic novel, quoting your sources and we will let Holly review it. Everyone else that disagrees with your interps can write a letter to Guardroom - that is the next 337 issues of Slingshot sorted...

It is worth a novel though I probably won't write it. And don't forget I control the Guardroom. Mwahahaha! 😈

The whole history of post-Roman Britain is such a well-worn path it's a trench, but I do pick up a couple of things. First that the Romano-Britains in the middle of the 5th century still saw themselves as part of the Roman world. Someone like St Germanus - a former Roman officer - could take command of their forces without a problem. He doesn't seem to encounter any established king or ruler during his sojourn in Britain. Vortigern seems an ad-hoc primus who has very little he can call his own - just enough troops to man a fort in Wales. He doesn't seem to have control over the British army that itself seems quite professional - using scouts and LI as needed.

Despite the lack of a clear centralised government Roman Britain still sees itself a unity - Vortigern whose power base is in Wales is concerned about what is happening in Scotland. It looks more like regional magistrates trying to govern their towns and keep order whilst praying for a return of imperial authority, not unreasonable considering that the Empire was still alive if unwell and that in the 440's Aetius had stabilised the situation in Gaul and would go on to defeat the Huns, adding enormously to Roman prestige - for a while. Everyone in 440's Britain must have thought the legions would return eventually once things settled down on the continent so weren't into nation-building in any serious way.

Secondly that warfare wasn't confined to one particular region in Britain - the frontier between the Saxon/Angle/Jute enclaves and British territory, but ranged all over the island. There were good interior lines of communication - natural given that the Roman network was intact - which permitted fast movement especially of small forces. So Arthur has no problem fighting everywhere in Britain including Caledonia. Fighting in the north BTW makes sense as Octa, Hengist's son came from there to take command in Kent:

"And Octa, after the death of his father Hengist, came from the sinistral part of the island to the kingdom of Kent, and from him have proceeded all the kings of that province, to the present period."

Which means Octa's original power base was in Scotland which also makes sense as Hengist had originally been brought over by Vorgitern to deal with the Picts north of Hadrian's Wall. So Octa was there doing Hengist's original job and - probably - didn't give up that territory when he took Kent in hand.

[Jim Webster]

The problem with St Germanus and his colleague Lupus of Troyes is that they were in Britain in 429AD or thereabouts.

So his arrival fits better with Gildas's period where peace led to luxuria and self-indulgence.

[Erpingham]

Sinistral = left side i.e. West rather than North.  I'd suggest this means Octa comes from the western end of the Saxon lands (would this be Hampshire/Dorset at this time?).

The continued "professionalism" of sub-Roman forces is, I know, a theme of yours but it is a bit of a stretch to use the (again) conventional words of Constantius to imply technical designations of a professional army. 

I'll leave others to discuss what exactly Vortigern represented politically and what his origins were likely to be.

[Andreas Johansson]

Sinistral = left side i.e. West rather than North.

Hm? Would west be be equated with left at the time? Medieval maps are often oriented with east at the top, which would give left = north.