The way Colchester lost its status as England's first capital city

[Imperial Dave]

what did I miss....?

We're missing the Welsh perspective. 

ahhhh.....I have caught up and find that I would need to gird my loins for a proper response

[Mick Hession]

Convention of orientation has varied over time. Medieval Christian maps have an eastern orientation (whence the term) while Muslim ones of similar date use a southern orientation. Ptolemy's map (probably the closest in time to Germanus) has a northern orientation.

In short, we don't know what sinistral means for sure and IMO it's extremely unwise to draw any definitive conclusions from the term ( but then drawing definitive conclusions from isolated words seems to be the basis for most arthuriana )

Cheers
Mick

[Justin Swanton]

The problem with St Germanus and his colleague Lupus of Troyes is that they were in Britain in 429AD or thereabouts.

So his arrival fits better with Gildas's period where peace led to luxuria and self-indulgence.

Thus enter the problems of chronology and St Germanus' second visit. Too vast to cover in one post. I note just one thing: Nennius gives an exact date for the arrival of Hengist and Horsa:

"The Saxons were received by Vortigern four hundred and forty-seven years after the passion of Christ, and, according to the tradition of our ancestors, from the period of their first arrival in Britain, to the first year of the reign of king Edmund, five hundred and forty-two years; and to that in which we now write, which is the fifth of his reign, five hundred and forty-seven years."

If Edmund is Edmund Ironsides then Nennius' calculations are exact: 447 + 542 = 989 and Edmund began his reign c. 990 (which, yes, put Nennius in the 10th century).

Correction: 447 years from Christ's death puts the date at 480 which obviously is too late. So forget about trusting Nennius' chronology (which is old news I suppose).

This of course is much later than the accepted chronology for St Germanus' first visit. Reading Bede and Constantius, I suspect that Germanus' first visit was purely religious, aimed at stamping out Pelagianism. His intervention against Vortigern came much later, i.e. it was a separate visit and happened only after Vortigern had called the Saxons in as mercenaries and enough time had passed for them to become a serious problem. There is a break in both passages that suggest separate visits:

In Nennius, St Germanus is busy in Wales up to chapter 35, then the narration switches to Vortigern and Hengist from 36 to 39, but St Germanus doesn't reappear until Vortigern marries his own daughter:

"In the meantime, Vortigern, as if desirous of adding to the evils he had already occasioned, married his own daughter, by whom he had a son. When this was made known to St. Germanus, he came, with all the British clergy, to reprove him."

Compare this to Constantius. Up until chapter 17 the holy bishop is doing purely ecclesiastical things. Then:

"Meanwhile, the Saxons and the Picts had joined forces to make war upon the Britons. The latter had been compelled to withdraw their forces within their camp and, judging their resources to be utterly unequal to the contest, asked the help of the holy prelates. The latter sent back a promise to come, and hastened to follow it. Their coming brought such a sense of security that you might have thought that a great army had arrived; to have such apostles for leaders was to have Christ Himself fighting in the camp."

Germanus coming can well be interpreted as his coming from Gaul, and the prestige he had gained from his first visit would have helped cement his authority over the British troops during his second visit. It takes a little time to become known and respected to this extent (added to the fact he may well have appeared at least to some extent as a sort of imperial representative).

[Justin Swanton]

The problem with St Germanus and his colleague Lupus of Troyes is that they were in Britain in 429AD or thereabouts.

So his arrival fits better with Gildas's period where peace led to luxuria and self-indulgence.

Thus enter the problems of chronology and St Germanus' second visit. Too vast to cover in one post. I note just one thing: Nennius gives an exact date for the arrival of Hengist and Horsa:

"The Saxons were received by Vortigern four hundred and forty-seven years after the passion of Christ, and, according to the tradition of our ancestors, from the period of their first arrival in Britain, to the first year of the reign of king Edmund, five hundred and forty-two years; and to that in which we now write, which is the fifth of his reign, five hundred and forty-seven years."

If Edmund is Edmund Ironsides then Nennius' calculations are exact: 447 + 542 = 989 and Edmund began his reign c. 990 (which, yes, put Nennius in the 10th century).

Correction: 447 years from Christ's death puts the date at 480 which obviously is too late. So forget about trusting Nennius' chronology (which is old news I suppose).

This of course is much later than the accepted chronology for St Germanus' first visit. Reading Bede and Constantius, I suspect that Germanus' first visit was purely religious, aimed at stamping out Pelagianism. His intervention against Vortigern came much later, i.e. it was a separate visit and happened only after Vortigern had called the Saxons in as mercenaries and enough time had passed for them to become a serious problem. There is a break in both passages that suggest separate visits:

In Nennius, St Germanus is busy in Wales up to chapter 35, then the narration switches to Vortigern and Hengist from 36 to 39, but St Germanus doesn't reappear until Vortigern marries his own daughter:

"In the meantime, Vortigern, as if desirous of adding to the evils he had already occasioned, married his own daughter, by whom he had a son. When this was made known to St. Germanus, he came, with all the British clergy, to reprove him."

Compare this to Constantius. Up until chapter 17 the holy bishop is doing purely ecclesiastical things. Then:

"Meanwhile, the Saxons and the Picts had joined forces to make war upon the Britons. The latter had been compelled to withdraw their forces within their camp and, judging their resources to be utterly unequal to the contest, asked the help of the holy prelates. The latter sent back a promise to come, and hastened to follow it. Their coming brought such a sense of security that you might have thought that a great army had arrived; to have such apostles for leaders was to have Christ Himself fighting in the camp."

Germanus coming can well be interpreted as his coming from Gaul, and the prestige he had gained from his first visit would have helped cement his authority over the British troops during his second visit. It takes a little time to become known and respected to this extent (added to the fact he may well have appeared at least to some extent as a sort of imperial representative).

[Imperial Dave]

or there were 2 or even 3 Germanus's

[Justin Swanton]

or there were 2 or even 3 Germanus's

Tch! tch! 2 or even 3 Germani ☝️

[Imperial Dave]

meh.....

[Justin Swanton]

meh.....

Lucky I'm not this chap. 

[Imperial Dave]

classic.....

[Erpingham]

Shouldn't it be Germanuses ?  

[Jim Webster]

Back to St Germanus, it appears that his death should be dated to 442 or 448, and but some think that it should be dated to c. 437

A second trip to Britain would still most likely be in the 430s AD

[Justin Swanton]

Back to St Germanus, it appears that his death should be dated to 442 or 448

What would those dates be based on? They seem to be hotly debated estimates.

[Imperial Dave]

off the top of my head one set is a work back from the 10th century but without looking it up I cant be sure

[Jim Webster]

Back to St Germanus, it appears that his death should be dated to 442 or 448

What would those dates be based on? They seem to be hotly debated estimates.

They are but I've given you the range, apparently he died in Rome and it may be he had to die in the presence of a particular pope 

As far as I can understand you can become an expert on this particular century in Britain, or you can have a life and be able to read other stuff
Seriously the amount of stuff out there is ridiculous. Even if you restrict it to respectable academic stuff.
I know the stuff I've noticed and mentioned to Holly could keep an honest man short of sleep trying to catch up with his reading 

[Imperial Dave]

ha ha ha 

I cant keep up with the reading required either