The chronology of 5th century Britain

[Imperial Dave]

I am pleased that you are happy with your proposal. Its always nice to get to a position where it appears to hang together. I am of a similar thought process apart from the Arthur bit in the 5th 

[Justin Swanton]

I am pleased that you are happy with your proposal. Its always nice to get to a position where it appears to hang together. I am of a similar thought process apart from the Arthur bit in the 5th 

Who's going to write the article?

[Imperial Dave]

we havent finished discussing it yet....

article + rules + figures = lots

[Erpingham]

I don't have Dave's expertise on these matters but I do have some issues with Justin's chronology.  In particular, basing so much on Nennius when it comes to St Germanus and ignoring Constantius' life, which is 5th century and is probably Nennius' source.  Constantius (rightly or wrongly) gives Germanus two visits.  The first visit is launched around 429 (we have other evidence for that).  During that visit the Alleluia victory occurs.  Germanus then returns to Gaul and does other stuff.  Then comes a second visit.  Then Germanus goes to Armorica and gets involved in things there for a while before setting off on a mission to Ravenna, dying sometime before 448 (given the story also involves a clash with Goar of the Alans in Armorica, probably not much earlier).   It is hard to see Germanus' first visit lasting 10-15 years as it doesn't give him time to do his bishoping in Gaul and Armorica, make a second visit, then get involved in Armorica again before his death.  And what have you done with Vortimer and the sons of Vortigern?

[Justin Swanton]

I don't have Dave's expertise on these matters but I do have some issues with Justin's chronology.  In particular, basing so much on Nennius when it comes to St Germanus and ignoring Constantius' life, which is 5th century and is probably Nennius' source.  Constantius (rightly or wrongly) gives Germanus two visits.  The first visit is launched around 429 (we have other evidence for that).  During that visit the Alleluia victory occurs.  Germanus then returns to Gaul and does other stuff.  Then comes a second visit.  Then Germanus goes to Armorica and gets involved in things there for a while before setting off on a mission to Ravenna, dying sometime before 448 (given the story also involves a clash with Goar of the Alans in Armorica, probably not much earlier).   It is hard to see Germanus' first visit lasting 10-15 years as it doesn't give him time to do his bishoping in Gaul and Armorica, make a second visit, then get involved in Armorica again before his death.  And what have you done with Vortimer and the sons of Vortigern?

I don't have the complete text of Constantius, just the translated exerpts on Vortigern Studies, which is a real bummer. Can you steer me to a complete MS?

According to this site which summarises the Vita, after his first journey and before his second Germanus travels to Arles and negotiates a reduction in taxes. That wouldn't have taken long. The latest date for his death is accepted as being 448, but what is the evidence for that? In any event, one can hypothesize that Germanus beats the Saxons around 445. He returns to Gaul that same year. He haggles over the taxes, say during 446. He returns to Britain in 446 and deals with the Pelagians until 447. He returns to Gaul in 448 and travels to Ravenna to plead for the Armoricans. He dies in Ravenna.

I did factor Vortigern and Vortimer into the picture. Vortigern is chosen as Primus around the time the Romans definitively disengage from Britain, say 420 give or take. He invites the Saxons in around 438-440. Things turn foul fairly soon and he removes to Wales whilst his son Vortimer fights the Saxons during the early 440s, eventually getting killed. Vortigern renews his alliance with the Saxons, is captured by them and is released only after ceding large tracts of eastern Britain. The kings reject his decision and overlordship and he flees again to Wales where Germanus catches up with him and is given command of the army that Vortimer formerly commanded. The Saxons send a relief army to Wales where they are defeated by Germanus around 445. Vortigern dies soon after and is replaced by Ambrosius. After Germanus returns to Gaul Arthur receives command of the army and the rest is mythology history.

[Erpingham]

I have to say, I can't see why you have Germanus hanging around Britain for a huge part of his episcopate, then cramming almost all of the rest of what is known of him in a couple of years at the end of his life, other than to shore up your chronology.

As I say, I'm not as well read as Dave, Stephen or Jim on this but I did find a useful explanation of the dating of Germanus' death in

https://aran.library.nuigalway.ie/bitstream/handle/10379/4449/Francesca_Bezzone.pdf

See pages 34-39

It's all very complicated.

[Justin Swanton]

I have to say, I can't see why you have Germanus hanging around Britain for a huge part of his episcopate, then cramming almost all of the rest of what is known of him in a couple of years at the end of his life, other than to shore up your chronology.

I need all the source material. For now look at what Germanus accomplishes during his first visit:

He preaches far and wide, converting many:

And now it was not long before these apostolic priests had filled all Britain, the first and largest of the islands, with their fame, their preaching, and their miracles; and, since it was a daily occurrence for them to be hemmed in by crowds, the word of God was preached, not only in the churches, but at the crossroads, in the fields, and in the lanes. Everywhere faithful Catholics were strengthened in their faith and the lapsed learned the way back to the truth. Their achievements, indeed, were after the pattern of the apostles themselves; they ruled through consciences, taught through letters and worked miracles through their holiness. Preached by such men, the truth had full course, so that whole regions passed quickly over to their side.

As a comparison, St Dominic's preaching mission amongst the Albigensians lasted at least 5 years (we all know how difficult it is to convince anyone of anything, especially when they already have settled convictions on the subject ).

He finally has a public debate with the Pelagians:

The teachers of perverse doctrines lay low for a time, lamenting as wicked spirits do, when nations escape from their clutches and are lost to them. In the end, after prolonged consideration they ventured upon a contest. They came forth flaunting their wealth, in dazzling robes, surrounded by a crowd of flatterers. They preferred the risk of exposure to a silence that would put them to shame in the eyes of the people they had deceived, who would regard them as having condemned themselves if they had nothing to say.

And indeed there was assembled at the meeting-place a crowd of vast proportions, wives and children among them, drawn by the occasion.

He visits the shrine of St Alban where he is injured and convalesces:

When this damnable heresy had been thus stamped out, its authors refuted, and the minds of all reestablished in the true faith, the bishops visited the shrine of the blessed martyr Alban, to give thanks to God through him. As they were returning, a demon, lying in wait, contrived an accident that caused Germanus to fall and injure his foot. Little did it realize that this bodily misfortune, like those of blessed Job, would advance him in holiness.

The bishop was detained by his injury in one place for a considerable period

He reproves Vortigern for marrying his own daughter:

Vortigern, as if desirous of adding to the evils he had already occasioned, married his own daughter, by whom he had a son. When this was made known to St. Germanus, he came, with all the British clergy, to reprove him

Vortigern then breaks with the Saxons, retires to Wales and leaves his son Vortimer to command the British forces against the Saxons. Vortimer wins several victories against them before finally getting killed:

At length Vortimer, the son of Vortigern, valiantly fought against Hengist, Horsa, and his people; drove them to the isle of Thanet, and thrice enclosed them within it, and beset them on the Western side.

The Saxons now despatched deputies to Germany to solicit large reinforcements, and an additional number of ships: having obtained these, they fought against the kings and princes of Britain, and sometimes extended their boundaries by victory, and sometimes were conquered and driven back.

Four times did Vortimer valorously encounter the enemy; the first has been mentioned, the second was upon the river Darent, the third at the Ford, in their language called Epsford, though in ours Set thirgabail, there Horsa fell, and Catigern, the son of Vortigern; the fourth battle he fought was near the stone on the shore of the Gallic sea, where the Saxons being defeated, fled to their ships. After a short interval Vortimer died

Hengist then offers Vortigern peace, and invites him to a feast to cement the renewed friendship. Vortigern is captured there and cedes areas in eastern Britain in return for his release.

All this must have taken some time. At this point Germanus reappears on the scene and rebukes Vortigern, telling him to cease relations with his daughter. Vortigern flees to Guorthegirnaim and later to Dimetae and builds a castle there (how long did that take to complete?). Germanus follows him to both places. Meanwhile the Saxons invade Britain and Germanus is given command of the army and defeats them in a mountainous place, probably Wales. Only after Vortigern's death does he return to Gaul.

These events must have required several years. Germanus' visit was a good deal longer than he originally anticipated.

Between visits he negotiates a tax reduction at Arles. I don't know if he does anything else.

During his last visit he condemns the Pelagians in a single meeting. A quick business:

The whole province came along with Elafius. The bishops arrived and the crowds came upon them unexpectedly. At once blessings and the words of God were showered upon them. Germanus could see that the people as a whole had persevered in the faith in which he had left them and the bishops realized that the fallings-away had been the work only of a few. These were identified and formally condemned.

[Jim Webster]

It's not as bad as all that. Thus far all I have to do is presume that St Germanus' first visit lasted 10-15 years (and he did enough to fill up that time) - or that his military adventure is a separate visit from his anti-Pelagian mission - and a plausible chronology can be shaken out that doesn't require dumping anything significant in the major sources or unrealistically stretching (or shortening) the lifetimes of any of the major players. Exact dates are a problem but that's not a big issue as all we really need are the main events in the right sequence and approximately dated. So put Vortigern inviting the Saxons over at about 440, Germanus' victory over them at about 445, Arthur's final victory at about 482 (already suggested elsewhere) and everything falls into place. Ambrosius and Arthur don't cancel each other out nor are they the same individual if one accepts that Ambrosius had supreme political command whilst Arthur had supreme military command. All very proper and late Roman. 

I think you're out on a limb with him spending years in Britain
He was a bishop with duties of his own, (training and ordaining St Patrick not the least of them) what we really need is The text of the Vita sancti Germani but all I've been able to find is the bits covering his trip to Britain. It's the bit in the middle we want and I cannot find an English translation on the web.

[Duncan Head]

what we really need is The text of the Vita sancti Germani but all I've been able to find is the bits covering his trip to Britain. It's the bit in the middle we want and I cannot find an English translation on the web.

This has a precis of the complete work section by section, in French but with extensive citation of the original Latin.

There's a French translation available at a reasonable price; and an English translation is apparently included in this.

[Erpingham]

This database contains references to many of St Germanus' miracles, given in latin and English translation.  He seems to do lots of miracles and preaching in Gaul, including on his trip to Arles (it seems to be his MO).  I would suggest the British-centric view of St Germanus' career needs to be balanced with what was probably a larger time being a Late Roman bishop in Gaul, do the usual bishop things - preaching, teaching, baptising, miracle working and getting involved in politics.

[Justin Swanton]

what we really need is The text of the Vita sancti Germani but all I've been able to find is the bits covering his trip to Britain. It's the bit in the middle we want and I cannot find an English translation on the web.

This has a precis of the complete work section by section, in French but with extensive citation of the original Latin.

Thanks Duncan. The precis makes clear that Germanus does very little before his first visit or between his first and second visits. Once made bishop he practises a life of ascetism, founds a monastery and make a journey. That's it. Between his first and second visit he makes the journey to Arles to sort out the tax problem then returns to Auxerre. His activities in Britain outweigh what he does during the rest of his life by a huge margin. Yeah, it was a long visit.

Edit: he was consecrated in 418. That means eleven years until his first visit in 429. One can presume that his Gallic period was a fairly quiet life, given to personal sanctification and some extraneous work like founding a monastery. But compare this eleven years to his sojourn in Britain and 15 years there hardly seems excessive.

[Jim Webster]

what we really need is The text of the Vita sancti Germani but all I've been able to find is the bits covering his trip to Britain. It's the bit in the middle we want and I cannot find an English translation on the web.

This has a precis of the complete work section by section, in French but with extensive citation of the original Latin.

There's a French translation available at a reasonable price; and an English translation is apparently included in this.

I've 'invested' in Hoare 

[Justin Swanton]

Taking another look at the date of 516 for Badon in the Welsh Chronicle. Nennius sometimes dates events from the Passion of Christ, not from his birth.

The Saxons were received by Vortigern, four hundred and forty-seven years after the passion of Christ, and,(3) according to the tradition of our ancestors, from the period of their first arrival in Britain, to the first year of the reign of king Edmund, five hundred and forty-two years; and to that in which we now write, which is the fifth of his reign, five hundred and forty-seven years. (which makes the first year of Edmund AD1022)

From the passion of Christ are completed nine hundred and forty-six; from his incarnation, nine hundred and seventy-six: being the fifth year of Edmund, king of the Angles (which makes the first year of Edmund AD971, so serious confusion of dates)

Is it an idea that the chronicler thought the original date - given as from his birth - was incorrectly calculated from his Passion and then added 33 years to give the date he recorded? That makes the true date 483.

Dave, can you point me to those Welsh annals that talk about Arthur?

[Erpingham]

Is it an idea that the chronicler thought the original date - given as from his birth - was incorrectly calculated from his Passion and then added 33 years to give the date he recorded? That makes the true date 483.

AP was consider 27 or 28 years AD then, apparently, so 488 or 489.  However, I don't think anyone accords great precision to the early dates in the Welsh annals, any more than the AS Chronicle.  Talking of the Welsh annals, we haven't discussed "strife of Camlann, in which Arthur and Medraut fell" dated 537.  Even if we date this relative to AC Badon, Arthur continues to be active for 20 years past Badon. 

[Justin Swanton]

Is it an idea that the chronicler thought the original date - given as from his birth - was incorrectly calculated from his Passion and then added 33 years to give the date he recorded? That makes the true date 483.

AP was consider 27 or 28 years AD then, apparently, so 488 or 489.

It was? I'd be interested in the source for that.

However, I don't think anyone accords great precision to the early dates in the Welsh annals, any more than the AS Chronicle.  Talking of the Welsh annals, we haven't discussed "strife of Camlann, in which Arthur and Medraut fell" dated 537.  Even if we date this relative to AC Badon, Arthur continues to be active for 20 years past Badon.

It's just about possible. Let's suppose that Arthur's career starts around 450. He is in his twenties or going on thirty and campaigns for +/-35 years before Badon, which puts him in his mid 60's. He remains in the saddle for another 20 years which puts him in his mid-80's at Camlann. That makes him unusually healthy and long-lived but not unbelievably so.