The chronology of 5th century Britain

[Anton]

Gidlow thinks it was the purple of martyrdom that Ambrosius parents wore.  That might work.

Bede does leave stuff out that doesn't suit him.  I don't attach any weight to him not mentioning Arthur.

last time I looked it seemed there was some sort of academic consensus about the sources available to Nennius that are lost to us.  Northern and Kentish chronicles come to mind.

Koch's linguistics based position on the early origin of the Arthur Gododdin verse seems robust enough.

Then of course we have Dark's view of the sudden use of the name Arthur by the Irish dynasties in Britain.  I haven't seen any response to that from other academics.  Yet, it certainly speaks to something.

Unrelated to the above it struck me that I cannot recall any Welsh source crediting Vortigern as a Wledig.  He has a Powys connection but no dynasty from there claims the title for him.  If that's so, it is interesting.

[Imperial Dave]

Gidlow thinks it was the purple of martyrdom that Ambrosius parents wore.  That might work.

Bede does leave stuff out that doesn't suit him.  I don't attach any weight to him not mentioning Arthur.

last time I looked it seemed there was some sort of academic consensus about the sources available to Nennius that are lost to us.  Northern and Kentish chronicles come to mind.

Koch's linguistics based position on the early origin of the Arthur Gododdin verse seems robust enough.

Then of course we have Dark's view of the sudden use of the name Arthur by the Irish dynasties in Britain.  I haven't seen any response to that from other academics.  Yet, it certainly speaks to something.

Unrelated to the above it struck me that I cannot recall any Welsh source crediting Vortigern as a Wledig.  He has a Powys connection but no dynasty from there claims the title for him.  If that's so, it is interesting.

good points.

for me it points to a 6th century Arthur not a 5th BUT thats a personal view after reading countless summaries, discussions, books and opposing views.

[Anton]

Thanks Dave.  As you say views are legion.

Just to pursue Vortigern a bit more.  If he wasn't a Wledig then his authority was not based on based that status.

[Imperial Dave]

possibly reflecting the split/internal schism of Vortigern vs Ambrosius. Maybe Ambrosius has legitimacy being 'of the purple' whereas Vortigern was a political opportunist

[Anton]

Or consent and consent withdrawn.

[Imperial Dave]

to the winner goes the spoils.....

[Erpingham]

to the winner goes the spoils.....

Dave, you missed a chance for an Abba quote there, after your Carpenters reference

[Imperial Dave]

yes.....probably best not to 

I could do these subliminal music references all day and all of the night

[Jim Webster]

Then we have the archaeology as well, I'm about to re-read Britannia Prima by Roger White which needs to be taken into account

[Imperial Dave]

I've seen a few articles of his on the Academia website but not read the book Jim.....any thoughts?

[Jim Webster]

I've seen a few articles of his on the Academia website but not read the book Jim.....any thoughts?

I think that we have to take people like him and Ken Dark seriously because they attempt to integrate the archaeological evidence into the story. In real terms it's the only way most of us can actually bring the archaeology in because trying to get hold of all the relevant excavation reports is a lifetime's work in itself
From memory this is the book that got Legionaries into the latest Sub roman Britain Army list because Phil and Sue Barker were impressed by the work done in the area
It's some years since I read it so I'd better re-read it

[Imperial Dave]

good enough for me. i'll get a copy

[Justin Swanton]

They voted  Churchill out because the troops ( and their families) had seen what happened in 1920 when a  ' home fit  for heroes' had rapidly become tge dole and the soup kitchen, even then work house. The electorate suspected that Churchill was the arch Conservative  and would have the workers back to the thirties by enacting Tory cheap labour policies!
In tge Ancient world war is politics, so , if you are nit Emperor or king then  you won the battles and kept a low profile. I am not sure how that would play in post Roman Britain. Holly, does bardic poetry celebrate other tgan the rulers?
Roy

There you go. His prestige as great war leader didn't help him in the first postwar election. It was enough that the electorate suspected he wouldn't do good by them for them to vote him out of office. A totally new mental shift. I suggest ditto for Arthur. Once he'd done his job he no longer had any relevance, his warrior image not being needed for several decades.

[Imperial Dave]

either that or he was a nasty piece of work.....?

[Erpingham]

either that or he was a nasty piece of work.....?

Spoken like a true son of the valleys