The chronology of 5th century Britain

[Justin Swanton]

This began with a hijacking of the Colchester thread (my humblest apologies). Figuring out whether Colchester (Camulodunum) could have been Arthur's HQ led to a study of the chronology of that era which deserved a separate thread.

Many of the posters here are, unlike me, erudite Arthurians, so I'm looking forward to learning quite a bit.

The idea is to try and establish the sequence of the main events in 5th century Britain and then see how accurately one can assign dates to some of those events. This is not so much rigorous history as best-fit scenario speculation. What reconstruction best fits the sources and what we know of that era? For sources we have Constantius' Vita Sancti Germani, Gildas' De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae, and Nennius' Historia Brittonum as the main texts. There are others but they don't add much.

Let me start with the sequence. I propose as terminus a quo the departure of the Roman administration from Britain, and for terminus ad quem the Battle of Badon. Provisionally, the date for the former is about 420AD and for the latter the late 400's to early 500's (but feel free to object strenuously). So - provisionally - we have a period of about 60-90 years. I suggest this order of events:

1. c. 420AD - The Roman administration leaves Britain.
This can't be fixed with certainty as the Romans didn't so much withdraw from Britain as gradually disengage from it. In 383 Maximus pulls most of the troops out of Britain, but according to Gildas, a legion is later sent to aid against the Picts and Scots, and some cavalry and ships some time after that. Then they give the Britons the means to construct their own weapons and build towers on the coast for them (the last is probably inaccurate but it underlines a gradually diminishing Roman involvement in Britain). Nennius describes this same intermittent Roman involvement after Maximus.

2. The Britons appeal to Agitius (Aetius) in vain.
This could refer to Aetius or Aegidius. Probably the former as Aegidius is rather too late on the scene, only appearing during Majorian's reign. Aetius became MM in Gaul only in 426 so the appeal cannot be earlier than that date.

3. The Britons momentarily check the Picts and Scots and there is a time of peace.
"And then it was, for the first time, that they  overthrew their enemies, who had for so many years been living in their country; for their trust was not  in man, but in God; according to the maxim of Philo, "We must have divine assistance, when that of  man fails." The boldness of the enemy was for a while checked, but not the wickedness of our  countrymen: the enemy left our people, but the people did not leave their sins."- Gildas: 20

4. The Picts and Scots renew their attacks.
"a vague rumour suddenly as if on wings reaches the ears of all, that their inveterate foes were rapidly approaching to destroy the whole country, and to take possession of it, as of old, from one end to the other."- Ibid: 22

5. Vortigern calls in Hengist.
Hengist initially resides at Thanet. More of his men then come over and the Britons have trouble provisioning them. He brings his daughter and gives her to Vortigern in exchange for Kent. He gets Vortigern to agree to give his son and brother land in the north of Britain where they can better deal with the Picts. All of these events must have taken some time.

6. Vortigern marries his own daughter and St Germanus comes to oppose him.
This intervention against Vortigern by St Germanus seems separated from his earlier mission against the Pelagians and may have been a separate visit.

7. Vortigern seeks refuge from Hengist in fortresses in Wales whilst his son Vortimer fights Hengist and defeats him.
Vortigern seems to flee from the Britons as much as from the Saxons, leaving Vortimer in control.

"At length Vortimer, the son of Vortigern, valiantly fought against Hengist, Horsa, and his people; drove them to the isle of Thanct, and thrice enclosed them with it, and beset them on the western side. The Saxons now despatched deputies to Germany to solicit large reinforcements, and an additional number of ships: having obtained these, they fought against the kings and princes of Britain, and sometimes extended their boundaries by victory, and sometimes were conquered and driven back.

Four times did Vortimer valorously encounter the enemy; the first has been mentioned, the second was upon the river Darent, the third at the Ford, in their language called Epsford, though in ours Set thirgabail, there Horsa fell, and Catigern, the son of Vortigern; the fourth battle he fought, was near the stone on the shore of the Gallic sea, where the Saxons being defeated, fled to their ships." - Nennius: 43-44

8. Vortimer is killed. Hengist offers a new alliance with Vortigern. Vortigern is captured and cedes Essex, Sussex and Middlesex in exchange for his freedom.
"The king being a captive, purchased his redemption, by delivering up the three provinces of East, South, and Middle Sex, besides other districts at the option of his betrayers."- Nennius: 46

9. Vortigern again flees to Wales where St Germanus follows him and is given command of the army.
"St. Germanus admonished Vortigern to turn to the true God, and abstain from all unlawful intercourse with his daughter; but the unhappy wretch fled for refuge to the province Guorthegirnaim, so called from his own name, where he concealed himself with his wives: but St. Germanus followed him with all the British clergy, and upon a rock prayed for his sins during forty days and forty nights.

The blessed man was unanimously chosen commander against the Saxons. And then, not by the clang of trumpets, but by praying, singing hallelujah, and by the cries of the army to God, the enemies were routed, and driven even to the sea." - Nennius: 47

10. The Saxons campaign across Britain and engage St Germanus in Wales, where they are defeated by him.
"For the fire of vengeance, justly kindled by former crimes, spread from sea to sea, fed by the hands of our foes in the east, and did not cease, until, destroying the neighbouring towns and lands, it reached the other side of the island, and dipped its red and savage tongue in the western ocean." - Gildas: 24

"St. Germanus admonished Vortigern to turn to the true God, and abstain from all unlawful intercourse with his daughter; but the unhappy wretch fled for refuge to the province Guorthegirnaim, so called from his own name, where he concealed himself with his wives: but St. Germanus followed him with all the British clergy, and upon a rock prayed for his sins during forty days and forty nights.

The blessed man was unanimously chosen commander against the Saxons. And then, not by the clang of trumpets, but by praying, singing hallelujah, and by the cries of the army to God, the enemies were routed, and driven even to the sea." - Nennius: 47

The Saxon campaign may be a relief army coming to the aid of Vortigern (who is their man and gives their presence in Britain legitimacy). Otherwise why come all the way to Wales?

11. Vortigern dies. Ambrosius Aurelianus succeeds him as the principal political authority in Britain.
"Others assure us, that being hated by all the people of Britain, for having received the Saxons, and being publicly charged by St. Germanus and the clergy in the sight of God, he betook himself to flight; and, that deserted and a wanderer, he sought a place of refuge, till broken hearted, he made an ignominious end." - Nennius: 48

"But in the meanwhile, an opportunity happening, when these  most cruel robbers were returned home, the poor remnants of our nation (to whom flocked from divers places round about our miserable countrymen as fast as bees to their hives, for fear of an ensuing  storm), being strengthened by God, calling upon him with all their hearts, as the poet says,– "With their unnumbered vows they burden heaven," that they might not be brought to utter destruction, took arms under the conduct of Ambrosius Aurelianus," - Gildas 25.

It seems that Aurelianus took power at the time of Vortigern's fall from grace, so he may have been on the scene when St Germanus defeated the Saxons.

12. St Germanus returns to the continent and some time later Arthur takes command of the army under Ambrosius.
"St. Germanus, after his death, returned into his own country. At that time, the Saxons greatly increased in Britain, both in strength and numbers. And Octa, after the death of his father Hengist, came from the sinistral part of the island to the kingdom of Kent, and from him have proceeded all the kings of that province, to the present period.

Then it was, that the magnanimous Arthur, with all the kings and military force of Britain, fought against the Saxons."- Nennius: 50

13. Arthur fights 12 campaigns against the Saxons under the authority of Ambrosius, culminating in the Battle of Badon Hill.
"And though there were many more noble than himself, yet he was twelve times chosen their commander, and was as often conqueror. The first battle in which he was engaged, was at the mouth of the river Gleni. The second, third, fourth, and fifth, were on another river, by the Britons called Duglas, in the region Linuis. The sixth, on the river Bassas. The seventh in the wood Celidon, which the Britons call Cat Coit Celidon. The eighth was near Gurnion castle, where Arthur bore the image of the Holy Virgin, mother of God, upon his shoulders, and through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the holy Mary, put the Saxons to flight, and pursued them the whole day with great slaughter. The ninth was at te City of Legion, which is called Cair Lion. The tenth was on the banks of the river Trat Treuroit. The eleventh was on the mountain Breguoin, which we call Cat Bregion. The twelfth was a most severe contest, when Arthur penetrated to the hill of Badon." - Nennius: 50

"After this, sometimes our countrymen, sometimes the enemy, won the field, to the end that our Lord might this land try after his accustomed manner these his Israelites, whether they loved him or not, until the year of the siege of Bath-hill, when took place also the last almost, though not the least slaughter of our cruel foes, which was (as I am sure) forty-four years and one month after the landing of the Saxons, and also the time of my own nativity." - Gildas: 26.

Arthur then is chosen as commander 12 times and wins 12 victories. This suggests a long career spanning perhaps several decades.


Assigning dates

Dates for Baden Hill range between 482 and 516. The date of St Germanus' death is disputed, but it must be in the 440s as he is en route to appeal to Aetius when he dies. Say 448 as the latest accepted date (though it might be later). If one places Germanus' victory over the Saxons somewhere in the mid 440's that means that Arthur takes command not long afterwards, say by 450 at the latest. A career of 30 to 40 years puts Baden somewhere in the 480's.

Vortigern then rules between the 420's and mid 440's, and invites the Saxons possibly in the 430's up to around 440.

Any further precisions possible? Or is it all tosh? (don't all reply at once)

[Imperial Dave]

oh my gawd.....you just had to open up the rabbit hole! 

[Anton]

An excellent thread.  I'll contribute what I can.  Time for a bit of a ponder.

[Justin Swanton]

oh my gawd.....you just had to open up the rabbit hole! 

Haargh! Haargh! Nyaargh!

[Erpingham]

School children used to learn a handful of dates significant in the story of Britain and one of them was that the Romans left in 410 AD.  Life was so much simpler then

[Imperial Dave]

yes, time for a ponder and a read and a reread and a ponder and a scratching of the head and a puffing out of the cheeks....

[Justin Swanton]

School children used to learn a handful of dates significant in the story of Britain and one of them was that the Romans left in 410 AD.  Life was so much simpler then

According to one source it was even easier than that. 1066 was the only memorable date.

[Anton]

Given that Gildas is at pains to tell us that he doesn't have the books he needs to write his history I think we need a prequel to Justin's point 1.

1.   What Maximus (Maxim Wledig) does is important for what happens later.  Irish and Welsh dynasties trace their founding to Maxim.  He empowered them and they remembered it.  They call him a Wledig, an over lord of kings.

2.   In the Old North Cunedda fights alongside the Men of Bryneich.  His marwnad (elegy) evidences Heroic Culture within the Empire.  The Men of Bryneich are clearly militarised.  Cunedda seems to have some sort of stipend that entitles him to land and resources sufficient to support a court and a war band. He seems accountable to a higher power.  He meets his death at the hands of rivals not foreign invaders.  His court bard does not claim royal status for Cunedda. Cunedda's death does not trigger a blood feud.  Instead, his followers seek a confirmation of existing arrangements.  Koch dates Marwnad Cunedda to 383AD.

3.   Rance argues for the settlement of Irish Federates in Wales.  If we look at the location of Ogham Stones we see where we can find the Irish in Britannia. The stones themselves are an emulation of Roman military practice.  They are often bilingual in Irish and Latin.  This looks to me like a military arrangement sanctioned by Maxim.


4.   We should accept Koch's dating of St. Patrick making him a contemporary and confederate of Maxim.  His mission to Ireland then takes place immediately post the settlement of Irish Federates in Britannia.

Putting 2,3 and 4 together we see a militarisation of Britannia under Maxim.  With 3 and 4 we see a major policy initiative to neutralise the threat from Ireland.

[Imperial Dave]

Given that Gildas is at pains to tell us that he doesn't have the books he needs to write his history I think we need a prequel to Justin's point 1.

1.   What Maximus (Maxim Wledig) does is important for what happens later.  Irish and Welsh dynasties trace their founding to Maxim.  He empowered them and they remembered it.  They call him a Wledig, an over lord of kings.

2.   In the Old North Cunedda fights alongside the Men of Bryneich.  His marwnad (elegy) evidences Heroic Culture within the Empire.  The Men of Bryneich are clearly militarised.  Cunedda seems to have some sort of stipend that entitles him to land and resources sufficient to support a court and a war band. He seems accountable to a higher power.  He meets his death at the hands of rivals not foreign invaders.  His court bard does not claim royal status for Cunedda. Cunedda's death does not trigger a blood feud.  Instead, his followers seek a confirmation of existing arrangements.  Koch dates Marwnad Cunedda to 383AD.

3.   Rance argues for the settlement of Irish Federates in Wales.  If we look at the location of Ogham Stones we see where we can find the Irish in Britannia. The stones themselves are an emulation of Roman military practice.  They are often bilingual in Irish and Latin.  This looks to me like a military arrangement sanctioned by Maxim.


4.   We should accept Koch's dating of St. Patrick making him a contemporary and confederate of Maxim.  His mission to Ireland then takes place immediately post the settlement of Irish Federates in Britannia.

Putting 2,3 and 4 together we see a militarisation of Britannia under Maxim.  With 3 and 4 we see a major policy initiative to neutralise the threat from Ireland.

1. yes completely agree, the 'transition' from empire to post empire begins in the 4th not 5th Century and I concur that Macsen Wledig is instrumental in this process. There are heaps of references back to him including family trees, folklore and the like.

2. Yes, the inference is that we are still nominally in the Roman period and clearly Cunedda is important in regards to his remit from MW/MM for stemming the tide (the North and the West at this point)

3. The whole Welsh seaboard shows evidence of this and in fact the origin for the kingdom of Brecon/Brecheiniog is of Irish ancestry but in all probability as federates and thus potentially as a result of prior action by MW and Cunedda

4. Again agree and makes sense with regards to what Patrick has to say in his works especially in regards to Coroticus

[Imperial Dave]

in fact we get more and more impression of a paramilitary set up in the far north and west of Britain in the later stages of the 4th Century

[Justin Swanton]

in fact we get more and more impression of a paramilitary set up in the far north and west of Britain in the later stages of the 4th Century

Makes sense. He arrived in Britain in 380 and quelled an invasion of Picts and Scots in 381. He was proclaimed emperor in 383 and wanted to leave Britain secure when he departed with his regular troops, so organising a local defence would have been natural.

[Imperial Dave]

its also probably why we see the emergence of local rulers and 'kingdoms' in those areas ahead of more Southerly areas

[Justin Swanton]

its also probably why we see the emergence of local rulers and 'kingdoms' in those areas ahead of more Southerly areas

And why Vortigern rises to prominence before Ambrosius.

[Jim Webster]

1. c. 420AD - The Roman administration leaves Britain.

And this is the first problem, Roman administration.
To quote a passage from the wiki (not because of it's excellence but because it nicely summarises some of the discussion)

An appeal for help by the British communities was, according to Zosimus, rejected by the Emperor Honorius in 410 AD. In the text called the Rescript of Honorius of 411, the Western Emperor Honorius tells the British civitates to look to their own defence as his regime was still fighting usurpers in the south of Gaul and trying to deal with the Visigoths who were in the very south of Italy. The first reference to this rescript is written by the sixth-century Byzantine scholar Zosimus and is located randomly in the middle of a discussion of southern Italy; no further mention of Britain is made, which has led some, though not all, modern academics to suggest that the rescript does not apply to Britain, but to Bruttium in Italy.

So depending on your definition of 'Roman Administration' it had already departed by 410AD (Some think that it was kicked out when Constantine was killed and the civitates (who were an element within Roman administration but a minor one) appealed to Honorius to give them one.

Indeed Ikka Syvanne  in his Military History of Late Rome 425-457
Indeed looking at my review of the book I wrote ", Britain and Spain remained 'functionally Roman' even after the 'Roman armies' had left. As an aside I found his discussion of the activities of the Bishop Germanus, the Alleluia Victory in Britain, and linking it in with the situation in Gaul at the time, particularly fascinating. "   

But this gives us a glimpse of the problem of chronology. One document we have a date for, we don't have the document, it's mentioned in another document, and might not refer to Britain at all.

[Justin Swanton]

1. c. 420AD - The Roman administration leaves Britain.

And this is the first problem, Roman administration.
To quote a passage from the wiki (not because of it's excellence but because it nicely summarises some of the discussion)

An appeal for help by the British communities was, according to Zosimus, rejected by the Emperor Honorius in 410 AD. In the text called the Rescript of Honorius of 411, the Western Emperor Honorius tells the British civitates to look to their own defence as his regime was still fighting usurpers in the south of Gaul and trying to deal with the Visigoths who were in the very south of Italy. The first reference to this rescript is written by the sixth-century Byzantine scholar Zosimus and is located randomly in the middle of a discussion of southern Italy; no further mention of Britain is made, which has led some, though not all, modern academics to suggest that the rescript does not apply to Britain, but to Bruttium in Italy.

The Rescript, presuming it refers to Britain, shows that Roman administration was still alive and well in Britain in 410. The writers, clearly British dignitaries, consider themselves as part of the Empire and Honorius as their overlord who is responsible for their welfare. That makes them "Roman administration" by any definition. Notice that Honorius doesn't ask them: "Who are you and why are you writing to me? He accepts that the welfare of the island is in principle his problem but tells them he simply doesn't have the manpower to help them and advises them to aid themselves.