The chronology of 5th century Britain

[Erpingham]

I would consider the Alleluia battle an allegory as part of the Germanus narrative (along with the various miracle healings)

I'm not so sure.  The version as we have it is clearly influenced by biblical accounts of miraculous victories but biblical imagery is not exactly uncommon in medieval battle accounts either, being one of the common models of battle description writers have access to.  Constantius presumably includes the battle for a reason - most saints don't get a miraculous battle, just lots of healing, casting out demons and acts of charity.  The idea of the battle - that the enemy is ambushed in a narrow valley and is surprised by the battlecries of enemy apparently all around, so panics and breaks - isn't impossible.  If we do accept it, how much do we take its circumstances in account?  It is in the first visit, so around 430-ish.  The enemy are an alliance of Saxons and Picts.  Did this alliance exist (if so where), or is this a stock "baddy" from a continental perspective?  Given the date, is this likely to be a power grab or just a raid? 

[Imperial Dave]

The 'Saxon' element was possibly added as an embellishment. I am trying desperately to find the reference to this that I came across! 

[Jim Webster]

Given the nature of the terrain described, the fact that light troops are specifically mentioned, I can well imagine that a well timed battle cry would indeed echo around the place and the Picts and Saxons would doubtless look up, see disciplined troops drawn up to face them, and light troops and who knows what else coming round their flanks. Breaking and running, perhaps encouraged by a charge from the British, could well have been on the cards.

I suspect omissions rather than additions to the account 

[Imperial Dave]

of course it could just have been a raiding party of (shall we say) very small size that could have been frightened off by the thought of facing an army...that I might grant you. the embellishment then comes in the form of overblowing the size of the enemy.

If we believe its in the NW/N Wales then Picts in a raiding part is possible by boat

[Justin Swanton]

His intentions are doubtless sincere, though, by his own admission, he is making the best of what he can find.

Given he's taking stuff from, " Annals of the Romans and from the Chronicles of the Holy Fathers, and from the writings of the Irish and the English, and out of the tradition of our elders," it's a pretty mixed bag.

I would suggest that 'heaping up' amassing or collecting is pretty much the opposite of 'sorting' winnowing or otherwise discarding stuff because it doesn't make sense.

But apparently the pdf is here

https://www.yorku.ca/inpar/nennius_giles.pdf

We need a little perspective on this. Nennius lived about 400 years after the events he records. That's not very long for an era that was intensely conservative. He is a Briton determined to record the history of the Britons before it is lost forever. An approximate equivalent would be a Welshman writing a history of 15th century Wales and the deeds of Owen Glendower (I added two centuries to counterbalance the effect of printing technology) with the limitations of not having access to the internet, using only books and spoken lore and never travelling. He would still make a pretty good job of it. Nennius of course is not a Polybius but he is conscientious and is interested in the truth, not in well-written fantasy: "poison mixed with honey from a golden goblet."

He has a variety of sources which IMHO should be an advantage, not a hindrance, since he then gets different perspectives on the same historical events - a real help towards objectivity. It's not a question of pro-Roman or pro-Greek propaganda. Actually, since there is no point to propaganda - the Britons are done, confined to the remote corners of Britain (sorry Dave!) and their history in danger of disappearing - the only motive he could have is simply to record the deeds of a people who great days are long past.

[Erpingham]

An approximate equivalent would be a Welshman writing a history of 15th century Wales and the deeds of Owen Glendower (I added two centuries to counterbalance the effect of printing technology) with the limitations of not having access to the internet, using only books and spoken lore and never travelling.

Not really.  A pre-internet Welshman could read numerous books on Glyndwr by nipping to his local library.  He could order up more obscure works from the national library - he might even have been able to go to his local bookshop and order some books still in print.  He would need to cope with the biases of his authors but he could probably access both English and Welsh scholarly accounts as well as a range of historical, poetic and record sources and even folklore compilations.  I'm afraid poor Nennius was in a much worse position, pulling together what he had to hand and any stories he and his contacts knew, making a heap and then trying to knit what he had into a coherent whole.  Overall, he does a good job but let's not fantasize about modern parallels.

[Justin Swanton]

I'm afraid poor Nennius was in a much worse position, pulling together what he had to hand and any stories he and his contacts knew, making a heap and then trying to knit what he had into a coherent whole.  Overall, he does a good job but let's not fantasize about modern parallels.

Not quite. Nennius was a monk. That means he lived in a monastery, probably the monastery of Holyhead in Anglesey (his mentor was Elfodd, bishop of Bangor, who was associated with Holyhead), and monasteries were the libraries of that era. Many if not most of our MSS from Antiquity were transmitted via monasteries. Monks would travel between monasteries, bringing manuscripts their library didn't yet have, and other monks there would copy them. Nennius was in the perfect place to acquire the information he needed. Holyhead wasn't sacked by the Vikings before the 10th century, which means all the documents and records it had from its foundation around 540AD would have been intact in Nennius' time.

[Imperial Dave]

no, lets not.

Also we are reliant on copyists faithfully transcribing the original treatises (which we know they didnt) and all of them knowing/understanding what they were copying
(which not all of them did). Also question the motives for writing these things.....why did Nennius suddenly decide to make a heap of information and bundle it all up together?

[Imperial Dave]

which means all the documents and records it had from its foundation around 540AD would have been intact in Nennius' time.

as sweeping statements go.........how on earth do we know that for certain. Fire, flood, losses, mice, mischievousness as well as the elements I put in my last reply

[Justin Swanton]

no, lets not.

Also we are reliant on copyists faithfully transcribing the original treatises (which we know they didnt) and all of them knowing/understanding what they were copying
(which not all of them did). Also question the motives for writing these things.....why did Nennius suddenly decide to make a heap of information and bundle it all up together?

Yes, let's. 

Copyists specifically took care to copy original treatises accurately - that was their job and they had all the time in the world for it. They certainly would have understood the language they were copying - if they were copying Latin they would have understood Latin - and that was enough to do a good job of replicating a document. Nennius decided to gather everything into a single work because nobody else had done it (there were no historians strictly-speaking in Mediaeval Wales) and he wanted to preserve the history of his people, realising their great days were done.

[Justin Swanton]

which means all the documents and records it had from its foundation around 540AD would have been intact in Nennius' time.

as sweeping statements go.........how on earth do we know that for certain. Fire, flood, losses, mice, mischievousness as well as the elements I put in my last reply

If the monastery didn't burn to the ground, and there's no record it did, then the monks were quite capable of ensuring nothing else would damage the MSS (they had the job of preserving those MSS and took the necessary measures to do so) - or at least nothing would damage the MSS to such an extent they couldn't make fresh copies of them.

[Erpingham]

Perhaps it is an unfamiliarity with 20th century Wales? This was a modern western country with a literate population, well-stocked libraries, multiple top class places of learning and Britain's first "book town" in Hay-on-Wye.  It has changed since the Dark Ages.

We have Nennius' word that he had very little material to go on, especially local historical materials, but had used whatever he could lay his hands on. 

Incidentally, Holyhead monastry is interesting in that it was built inside a late Roman fort. 

This potted history of St Cybi's church is quite interesting.

[Justin Swanton]

Perhaps it is an unfamiliarity with 20th century Wales? This was a modern western country with a literate population, well-stocked libraries, multiple top class places of learning and Britain's first "book town" in Hay-on-Wye.  It has changed since the Dark Ages.

We have Nennius' word that he had very little material to go on, especially local historical materials, but had used whatever he could lay his hands on. 

Incidentally, Holyhead monastry is interesting in that it was built inside a late Roman fort. 

This potted history of St Cybi's church is quite interesting.

Sure, 8th century Gwynedd wasn't 20th century Gwynedd, but I think my point still stands. Nennius lived at a library that had existed without disturbance for 300 years. The library was part of a very cosmopolitan Church - Elfodd had conformed the date of Easter to the date observed by the rest of the Church. That means plenty of communication between Catholic Wales and the rest of Catholicism. True, he has much less material to work from than existed in former times, but that doesn't mean he had so little material that he would be obliged to pad out or invent things to make up his work - which isn't very long in any case.

We need to lose the idea that Nennius was some sort of lonely hermit in a village or cave somewhere, with a few books on a shelf and whatever he could glean from passers by. He was part of an organised institution of learning - his mastery of Latin proves it - and by any gauge was well-educated.

[Erpingham]

Monasteries, of course, didn't have copies of everything, even those things which were quite important legally.  This is one explanation for the amount of documentary forgery conducted in them - to "replace" those land deeds or wills that proved they owned things but had somehow become mislaid. 

Generally, the idea that all copies were executed perfectly would be rejected by scholars simply on the basis of the multiple variant versions of documents that exist.

[Justin Swanton]

Monasteries, of course, didn't have copies of everything, even those things which were quite important legally.  This is one explanation for the amount of documentary forgery conducted in them - to "replace" those land deeds or wills that proved they owned things but had somehow become mislaid. 

Generally, the idea that all copies were executed perfectly would be rejected by scholars simply on the basis of the multiple variant versions of documents that exist.

Deeds are one thing, historical records of Britain quite another. There's no vested interest in forging a history of Britain. Nor would it be possible - too many other records of the facts already exist. And sure, manuscripts do differ, but the vast majority of differences are minor - and don't forget Nennius is using manscripts that existed before 850 - a 400-year copying history isn't long.