The chronology of 5th century Britain

[Imperial Dave]

there are some papers on possible foederati areas in the 4th. I'll try and dig some out. From memory, there are visible clues in the archaeology but as we know this isnt conclusive proof!

[Anton]

Yes, new practices might well have emerged in a new setting Jim. 

We can be fairly sure though that the various Germanic peoples brought their existing practice with them.  I don't doubt those codes also made provision for 'us and them' and see no reason that 'them' would be rated as highly as 'us'.

All the same Dave it's what we have currently got and we have to start somewhere.  Sometimes it's possible to put something together.

[Jim Webster]

Yes, new practices might well have emerged in a new setting Jim. 

We can be fairly sure though that the various Germanic peoples brought their existing practice with them.  I don't doubt those codes also made provision for 'us and them' and see no reason that 'them' would be rated as highly as 'us'.

All the same Dave it's what we have currently got and we have to start somewhere.  Sometimes it's possible to put something together.

We've seen how other Germanic Peoples seem to have evolved an identity over the period, do there is a lot of academic discussion as to what was a 'Visigoth' at various times.
Also we have the problem that, for example, the early laws are from Kent. But we know Kent was probably different in that it may have been 'settled' in a more orderly manner. So in the case of these laws, those with the low weirgeld were the descendants of Late Roman Coloni who may have drifted into from one sort of serfdom to another sort of serfdom.

[aligern]

What is the 'core ethnicity of Cerdic and Cynric?
Picking up on the regional differences I suggest that maintaining a presence in Bernicia would be difficult without quickly integrating natives, whereas in East Anglia there would be much denser settlement of Germans.  In Mercia there would be a patchwork of small polities with populations varying from established federates as perhaps on the Middle Thames, to immigrant Germanics and on to  British units that converted to German status, possibly led by their own British elite.
Roy

[Imperial Dave]

I think this is a key point, the size of polities will have varied especially the further east or SE you go. There is no one size fits all. The patchwork of groupings will have added to the patchwork of polities which only begins to resolve into something like kingdoms in the 6th

[Jim Webster]

What is the 'core ethnicity of Cerdic and Cynric?
Picking up on the regional differences I suggest that maintaining a presence in Bernicia would be difficult without quickly integrating natives, whereas in East Anglia there would be much denser settlement of Germans.  In Mercia there would be a patchwork of small polities with populations varying from established federates as perhaps on the Middle Thames, to immigrant Germanics and on to  British units that converted to German status, possibly led by their own British elite.
Roy

I confess it was Cerdic and Cynric who occurred to me
Indeed I wonder whether to a Saxon peasant a third generation federate would be more or less strange than a Briton?

[Imperial Dave]

to a peasant, the important thing is the social hierarchy to which he finds himself connected

[DougM]

He was a monk and evangelist. He's writing a sermon, not a history.
Think of it as a leader article in the Sunday Newspaper attacking the moral degeneration of the west over the collapse of Afghanistan
There's the historical introduction to set the scene, largely written from memory, because the detail is there purely to set the moral scene, it doesn't need fact checking. The important part of the leader article is the tirade that comes next.
It's the same with Gildas. The important part of his sermon is how far current leaders have fallen. Sadly, it's the bit we have damn all interest in

He was a monk and evangelist. He's writing a sermon, not a history. But he does know history. And he wasn't a contemporary journalist. I have a friend who did a course in journalism at university. Amongst the first things his lecturer said was "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

And I have a wife who has been a journalist for thirty years on three continents and has taught journalism at university. She would say that lecturer was not a journalist.

[Jim Webster]

He was a monk and evangelist. He's writing a sermon, not a history.
Think of it as a leader article in the Sunday Newspaper attacking the moral degeneration of the west over the collapse of Afghanistan
There's the historical introduction to set the scene, largely written from memory, because the detail is there purely to set the moral scene, it doesn't need fact checking. The important part of the leader article is the tirade that comes next.
It's the same with Gildas. The important part of his sermon is how far current leaders have fallen. Sadly, it's the bit we have damn all interest in

He was a monk and evangelist. He's writing a sermon, not a history. But he does know history. And he wasn't a contemporary journalist. I have a friend who did a course in journalism at university. Amongst the first things his lecturer said was "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

And I have a wife who has been a journalist for thirty years on three continents and has taught journalism at university. She would say that lecturer was not a journalist.

From my experience as a free lance journalist I reckon that only one in three stories I came across were still a story when I investigated more deeply.
At this point there might be another story in there but it wasn't the one I'd come looking for.
I was once phoned by an editor asking why I was the only person who hadn't pestered him with a particular story that everybody else was running.
I replied that I'd looked into it and explained to him the real story.
So he paid me to write that because it was a chance to rub the noses of his rivals in it 

There are advantages to have a farm to fall back on at times, it has even allowed me 'speak truth unto power' secure in the knowledge that we'd still eat 

[Imperial Dave]

so it is all down to whether you want to write the truth or to write a story....very insightful when you think about it for a moment

[Anton]

What is the 'core ethnicity of Cerdic and Cynric?
Picking up on the regional differences I suggest that maintaining a presence in Bernicia would be difficult without quickly integrating natives, whereas in East Anglia there would be much denser settlement of Germans.  In Mercia there would be a patchwork of small polities with populations varying from established federates as perhaps on the Middle Thames, to immigrant Germanics and on to  British units that converted to German status, possibly led by their own British elite.
Roy

You and I have done the Cerdic story together before Roy.  I think we both thought we got somewhere useful at the time.

Thinking about it once more it struck me that Cerdic is for the Germans who  founded Wessex is akin to Maxim Wledig for the Irish and Welsh dynasties-the original benefactor to be preserved in memory.  The difference being Maxim left the stage while Cerdic stayed and was succeeded by others with Celtic names.

I still think Cerdic was an Atrebate royal with a German mother.  His early career is text book Celtic royal stuff.

In the spirit of this thread let's consider how Atrebates and local Saxons would consider Cerdic's status. 

For the Atrebates Cerdic was one of them because of his paternal descent and a royal too ditto.  For the Saxons, lets assume it was a high status marriage, Cerdic was a high status political connection who would favour his maternal nephews and promote their interests if they showed promise.  He would do the latter because they were not Atrebates and could therefore never pose a political threat in Atrebate society.  Such nephews were often entrusted with military responsibilities.

In the end the Atrebates lose out and we get the Laws of Ine and Wessex but it looks like a lengthy process to me.

Above I've wandered into conjecture but it does fit with what we know.

I'm with Dave on the importance of hierarchy, it is everything for those concerned.

[Imperial Dave]

what if Wessex was founded on the Atrebates territorial basis with a core of Romano-British but with a Germanic foederati/warband element from the area (possibly settled in the 4th Century). My own take is that the Gewisse (the 'trusted ones') form the Germanic element and we end up with a hybrid Wessex polity emerging in the late 5th early 6th

[Jim Webster]

so it is all down to whether you want to write the truth or to write a story....very insightful when you think about it for a moment

Provided there is not going to be a libel case, some editors are very relaxed. But the standard of investigation isn't high at times, look at the whole Carl Beech and Operation Midland thing. I haven't seen any sign of journalists getting in there and asking difficult questions.

Bringing it back to Chronology of 5th Century, we see in our time the journalists, the 'chroniclers' of the era writing a chronicle which reflects the perception of the era created by those in power, as opposed to the real chronicle of the era. So when reading Gildas or Ninneas its wise to stop and ponder the agenda of the people who created the sources they used

[Imperial Dave]

Exactly my thoughts Jim.

[DougM]

Essentially proper journalism is dead in the UK. When the BBC stopped calling out lies, it died.

Real journalists; the kind with awards, and integrity, on the whole are no longer working for newspapers.