The mechanism of Roman line relief

[Erpingham]

Here we have the crux of the matter: the hastati are retiring under pressure; there is no question of a convenient pause in the fighting. 

Assuming that the Latin term for pressure is meant purely literally (being physically pushed) and can't be used more figuratively, as it can in English. 

[Patrick Waterson]

Assuming that the Latin term for pressure is meant purely literally (being physically pushed) and can't be used more figuratively, as it can in English. 

Looking up the relevant verb 'premo' we get:

Definitions:

    oppress
    overwhelm
    press, press hard, pursue

Not much room for figurative manoeuvre there, methinks.

The more poetic aspects, covered in the much more extensive Perseus Project Liddell-Scott lexicon entry, are also quite tangible.  There are a few oratorical expressions at the end of the list which are more of the sense of 'precise' but even these have the overtones of physical pressure being used to bring about the result.

It seems we can conclude that the pressure Livy was referring to was physical.  However I have not been able to find a translation for the specific expression 'pede presso', and it is noteworthy that translators of Livy tend to miss it out altogether or conflate it with 'retro cedentes' as "retreat slowly".

There seems to be an expression in present-day Italian, 'pede pressa', and I wonder exactly what meaning that has, with the usual caveats about possible changes of meaning over cultures and centuries.

[andrew881runner]

Assuming that the Latin term for pressure is meant purely literally (being physically pushed) and can't be used more figuratively, as it can in English. 

Looking up the relevant verb 'premo' we get:

Definitions:

    oppress
    overwhelm
    press, press hard, pursue

Not much room for figurative manoeuvre there, methinks.

The more poetic aspects, covered in the much more extensive Perseus Project Liddell-Scott lexicon entry, are also quite tangible.  There are a few oratorical expressions at the end of the list which are more of the sense of 'precise' but even these have the overtones of physical pressure being used to bring about the result.

It seems we can conclude that the pressure Livy was referring to was physical.  However I have not been able to find a translation for the specific expression 'pede presso', and it is noteworthy that translators of Livy tend to miss it out altogether or conflate it with 'retro cedentes' as "retreat slowly".

There seems to be an expression in present-day Italian, 'pede pressa', and I wonder exactly what meaning that has, with the usual caveats about possible changes of meaning over cultures and centuries.

don't invent things about Italian language since I am Italian. "Pede pressa" means exactly nothing in Italian. Don't do the same for Latin since I have studied it too. I don't have the Latin vocabulary near but "pede presso" is ablative form and literally means "with the foot pressed (in the ground?)" which gives me the idea of a metaphor to refer to a fast movement.
Only my idea.

But do not improvise yourself as Latin translator if you are not. Neither do that for Italian inventing non existent words (non existent tactics are enough)

[Erpingham]

Looking up the relevant verb 'premo' we get:

Definitions:

    oppress
    overwhelm
    press, press hard, pursue

Not much room for figurative manoeuvre there, methinks.

Really?  Oppress sounds psychological, rather than physical, to me.  Overwhelm could mean physically or psychologically too.  I would therefore suggest that pressure could mean psychological pressure - they are coming to breaking point.  Thus they can pressed and forced to retreat, without constant physical pressure, IMO.

[Justin Swanton]

Assuming that the Latin term for pressure is meant purely literally (being physically pushed) and can't be used more figuratively, as it can in English. 

Looking up the relevant verb 'premo' we get:

Definitions:

    oppress
    overwhelm
    press, press hard, pursue

Not much room for figurative manoeuvre there, methinks.

The more poetic aspects, covered in the much more extensive Perseus Project Liddell-Scott lexicon entry, are also quite tangible.  There are a few oratorical expressions at the end of the list which are more of the sense of 'precise' but even these have the overtones of physical pressure being used to bring about the result.

It seems we can conclude that the pressure Livy was referring to was physical.  However I have not been able to find a translation for the specific expression 'pede presso', and it is noteworthy that translators of Livy tend to miss it out altogether or conflate it with 'retro cedentes' as "retreat slowly".

There seems to be an expression in present-day Italian, 'pede pressa', and I wonder exactly what meaning that has, with the usual caveats about possible changes of meaning over cultures and centuries.

don't invent things about Italian language since I am Italian. "Pede pressa" means exactly nothing in Italian. Don't do the same for Latin since I have studied it too. I don't have the Latin vocabulary near but "pede presso" is ablative form and literally means "with the foot pressed (in the ground?)" which gives me the idea of a metaphor to refer to a fast movement.
Only my idea.

But do not improvise yourself as Latin translator if you are not. Neither do that for Italian inventing non existent words (non existent tactics are enough)

Patrick is not inventing anything. He is simply asking the question of whether the contemporary Italian expression 'pede pressa' has any link with the Latin 'pede presso'.

I have not always agreed with everything he says (we have a different understanding of 'ordo' for example) but I have always been impressed by the courtesy and consideration with which he expresses his opinions and listens to those of others - which is something we all appreciate on this forum.

[andrew881runner]

I am only saying politely and kindly that "pede pressa" does  it mean anything in Italian. And I kindly suggested not to invent things.

[Justin Swanton]

More a simple error than an invention. It appears to be Portuguese, with the sense of 'ask urgently' (demand?).

[Patrick Waterson]

"Pede pressa" means exactly nothing in Italian.

Curious, because I saw it in a web entry.  Thank you, however, for confirming this.

More a simple error than an invention. It appears to be Portuguese, with the sense of 'ask urgently' (demand?).

And that would seem to put it where it belongs.  Thanks, Justin.

I don't have the Latin vocabulary near but "pede presso" is ablative form and literally means "with the foot pressed (in the ground?)" which gives me the idea of a metaphor to refer to a fast movement.

Actually it suggests the opposite, as a man being forced back would resist 'pede presso', with his foot pressed to the ground, and one notes that translators, although avoiding 'pede presso', seem united in the idea that the Roman line retirement proceeded 'slowly'.

Really?  Oppress sounds psychological, rather than physical, to me.  Overwhelm could mean physically or psychologically too.  I would therefore suggest that pressure could mean psychological pressure - they are coming to breaking point.  Thus they can pressed and forced to retreat, without constant physical pressure, IMO.

This is why I also checked the Liddell-Scott lexicon.  The entry (click on the Lewis and Short link for 'premo') is rather too extensive to quote here but see if you agree about the preponderance of meanings being physical or physically-based.

[andrew881runner]

"Pede pressa" means exactly nothing in Italian.

Curious, because I saw it in a web entry.  Thank you, however, for confirming this.

More a simple error than an invention. It appears to be Portuguese, with the sense of 'ask urgently' (demand?).

And that would seem to put it where it belongs.  Thanks, Justin.

I don't have the Latin vocabulary near but "pede presso" is ablative form and literally means "with the foot pressed (in the ground?)" which gives me the idea of a metaphor to refer to a fast movement.

presso is a form of the verb Premere which is the same even in Italian (though changing in declination obviously).  Premere in Italian and in Latin too refers mainly to pushing something. If I should translate Push into Italian I would use Prémere.  So "pede presso" literally means pushing the foot (into the ground, where would you push your foot?). Then everyone could interprete this metaphorically in different ways. Like running (when you run you push the foot in the ground harder) or like holding ground (keeping the left foot, the one behind the shield, steady, so to hold your position against an enemy pushing). I would go for this second meaning. So ha stati would retreat slowly while not giving their back and running (like they did in my video).
It would mean some time more to execute the relief tactic, but a more secure way to do it.

[andrew881runner]

anyway going back to the relief system, the one I showed is the only possible, since the other you talked about (retreat of lines inside lines) cannot be made with soldiers in cose formation. You don't have to Forget that Romans used (phalanx, as Polybius calls it) close formation. Each man had 3 feet of space, which is 90 cm. Considering that the shoulders of an average fit man are 55/65 cm, there was 35/25 cm left for another man to go through. And you cannot consider that they could turn themselves 90 degrees to make the other guys pass, because the manoeuvre implies that a rank advances as the other retreats. So they all have to be with parallel shoulders, advancing or retreating.
And simply room is not enough.
Even if it was possible in some degree, it would be chaos to melt 2 maniples together. I can only imagine Shields hitting people or other Shields... and swords hold in hands do a lot of scratches to team mates (would you put your sword away with enemy few meters away?)

[Justin Swanton]

anyway going back to the relief system, the one I showed is the only possible, since the other you talked about (retreat of lines inside lines) cannot be made with soldiers in cose formation. You don't have to Forget that Romans used (phalanx, as Polybius calls it) close formation. Each man had 3 feet of space, which is 90 cm. Considering that the shoulders of an average fit man are 55/65 cm, there was 35/25 cm left for another man to go through. And you cannot consider that they could turn themselves 90 degrees to make the other guys pass, because the manoeuvre implies that a rank advances as the other retreats. So they all have to be with parallel shoulders, advancing or retreating.
And simply room is not enough.
Even if it was possible in some degree, it would be chaos to melt 2 maniples together. I can only imagine Shields hitting people or other Shields... and swords hold in hands do a lot of scratches to team mates (would you put your sword away with enemy few meters away?)

If you reread my post (with the diagrams) you will notice that I have the principes files spaced 6 feet (180cm) apart, from centrepoint to centrepoint. This leaves a physical gap of about 4 feet between the men of one principes file and the next - plenty of space for retiring hastati to pass through.

The fact that Polybius talks about 'intervals' or 'gaps' among or within the 'ordines' suggests that the files are not in battle formation, with shields almost touching, but in a much more open formation which, as I mention in my post, closes up to a tighter battle formation once the hastati have passed through.

[Justin Swanton]

"Pede pressa" means exactly nothing in Italian.

Curious, because I saw it in a web entry.  Thank you, however, for confirming this.

More a simple error than an invention. It appears to be Portuguese, with the sense of 'ask urgently' (demand?).

And that would seem to put it where it belongs.  Thanks, Justin.

I don't have the Latin vocabulary near but "pede presso" is ablative form and literally means "with the foot pressed (in the ground?)" which gives me the idea of a metaphor to refer to a fast movement.

presso is a form of the verb Premere which is the same even in Italian (though changing in declination obviously).  Premere in Italian and in Latin too refers mainly to pushing something. If I should translate Push into Italian I would use Prémere.  So "pede presso" literally means pushing the foot (into the ground, where would you push your foot?). Then everyone could interprete this metaphorically in different ways. Like running (when you run you push the foot in the ground harder) or like holding ground (keeping the left foot, the one behind the shield, steady, so to hold your position against an enemy pushing). I would go for this second meaning. So ha stati would retreat slowly while not giving their back and running (like they did in my video).
It would mean some time more to execute the relief tactic, but a more secure way to do it.

Strictly-speaking 'presso' is a past, not present, participle, with the passive sense of 'pushed' rather than the active sense of 'pushing'. 'Pede presso' is an ablative absolute with the sense of 'whilst the feet were pushed' or 'with the feet being pushed', which to me at least conveys the impression of the owners of the feet being put under pressure that is driving, or tending to drive, them back.

'With the feet pushing' would be 'pede premente'.

[andrew881runner]

"Pede pressa" means exactly nothing in Italian.

Curious, because I saw it in a web entry.  Thank you, however, for confirming this.

More a simple error than an invention. It appears to be Portuguese, with the sense of 'ask urgently' (demand?).

And that would seem to put it where it belongs.  Thanks, Justin.

I don't have the Latin vocabulary near but "pede presso" is ablative form and literally means "with the foot pressed (in the ground?)" which gives me the idea of a metaphor to refer to a fast movement.

presso is a form of the verb Premere which is the same even in Italian (though changing in declination obviously).  Premere in Italian and in Latin too refers mainly to pushing something. If I should translate Push into Italian I would use Prémere.  So "pede presso" literally means pushing the foot (into the ground, where would you push your foot?). Then everyone could interprete this metaphorically in different ways. Like running (when you run you push the foot in the ground harder) or like holding ground (keeping the left foot, the one behind the shield, steady, so to hold your position against an enemy pushing). I would go for this second meaning. So ha stati would retreat slowly while not giving their back and running (like they did in my video).
It would mean some time more to execute the relief tactic, but a more secure way to do it.

Strictly-speaking 'presso' is a past, not present, participle, with the passive sense of 'pushed' rather than the active sense of 'pushing'. 'Pede presso' is an ablative absolute with the sense of 'whilst the feet were pushed' or 'with the feet being pushed', which to me at least conveys the impression of the owners of the feet being put under pressure that is driving, or tending to drive, them back.

'With the feet pushing' would be 'pede premente'.

yep I knew that... [emoji6]

[Patrick Waterson]

anyway going back to the relief system, the one I showed is the only possible, since the other you talked about (retreat of lines inside lines) cannot be made with soldiers in close formation. You don't have to Forget that Romans used (phalanx, as Polybius calls it) close formation. Each man had 3 feet of space, which is 90 cm. Considering that the shoulders of an average fit man are 55/65 cm, there was 35/25 cm left for another man to go through.

The limiting factor is actually the width of the shields, and even this can be reduced if the shield is held at an angle rather than face-on.  A man needs 18" of space (45 cm) as an irreducible minimum for deploying next to other men (coincidentally this is the frontal spacing of Macedonian phalangites in battle formation).  With men deployed 3' (90 cm) apart, this provides enough room for the files of one formation to filter through the files of another formation provided it is done slowly.

And you cannot consider that they could turn themselves 90 degrees to make the other guys pass, because the manoeuvre implies that a rank advances as the other retreats. So they all have to be with parallel shoulders, advancing or retreating.

We can deal with that objection easily.  The principes remain static as the hastati pass through, so there is no case of one rank advancing as another retreats.

Even if it was possible in some degree, it would be chaos to melt 2 maniples together. I can only imagine Shields hitting people or other Shields... and swords hold in hands do a lot of scratches to team mates (would you put your sword away with enemy few meters away?)

It would not be chaos because everyone knows what they are doing and the manoeuvre is simple to execute: the files of hastati back through the files of principes.  Nobody would be fool enough to hold his sword in a way that could imperil a comrade - any such tendencies (and any clumsiness with shields) would be eliminated during training by heavy use of the centurion's vine stick!

[andrew881runner]

I have studied Latin 7 years at school and I can assure that the meaning of "inter" in that context means "among". Translators translate Latin in a certain way not for chance. They are usually people who know very well Latin, more than you do. There are people, and my school teacher was one of them, who can talk latin almost as first language. So believe me if I tell you that to go against a given assumption you must be better than the one whose opinion you go against.

Unfortunately such people, who are very good with the language as a whole, are often the worst when it comes to matters of military vocabulary.  I would not presume, for example, to debate questions of Greek tense or gender agreement with Ian Scott-Kilver, who translated Polybius for the Penguin publishing company, but would unhesitatingly point out that he is completely wrong to translate 'logkhophorous' (Hannibal's peltasts, who accompany his slingers) as 'pikemen' in III.72 and elsewhere.  A logkhophoros used the logkhe, the approximately 6' long javelin that can in no way be classed or considered as a pike.  This is not the only serious translator's error that has been picked up by members of the Society, simply because the Society's members have specialised military interests whereas translators usually do not.


Regarding this particular passage (Livy VIII.8 ), I think we shall need to go through it in rather more detail.  The subject is the 'Livian' legion of 340 BC at the time of the battle against the Latins, and Livy describes each line of the Roman array as follows:

" prima acies hastati erant manipuli quindecim distantes inter se modicum spatium manipulus leves vicenos milites aliam turbam scutatorum habebat leves autem qui hastam tantum gaesaque gererent vocabantur."

(The first line of battle were hastati, fifteen maniples, with a short distance between them and the maniple of twenty leves; the rest of the formation [literally 'crowd'] was composed of shieldsmen [scutati] but the leves, as they were called, carried a spear [hasta] and javelins [gaesa].)

These groups of 20 men constituted the entire skirmisher strength of the legion at the time.  They were a semi-independent and differently armed part of the hastati.

"robustior inde aetas totidem manipulorum,quibus principibus est nomen, hos sequebantur, scutati omnes, insignibus maxime armis."

(Men in the prime of life formed the same number of maniples called principes, these were deployed behind [the hastati], were all shieldsmen and had the best equipment.)


The comment that the principes are 'all shieldsmen' (scutati omnes) indicates that the leves were considered subunits of the hastati.


" hoc triginta manipulorum agmen antepilanos appellabant"

(This array of thirty maniples was referred to as the antepilani.)

"quia sub signis iam alii quindecim ordines locabantur, ex quibus ordo unusquisque tres partes habebat"

(Because with the standards were another fifteen formations (ordines), each of which was formed of three components.)

"earum unam quamque primam pilum vocabant"

(Of these, the first was called the pilus.)

"tribus ex vexillis constabat ordo; sexagenos milites, duos centuriones, vexillarium unum habebat vexillum"

(Each ordo consisted of three vexilla; each vexillum had sixty men, two centurions and a standard.)

"centum octoginta sex homines erant"

(It [the vexillum] contained 186 men.)

"primum vexillum triarios ducebat, veteranum militem spectatae virtutis"

(The first vexillum led, consisting of triarii, veteran troops of perceived excellence.)

"secundum rorarios, minus roboris aetate factisque"

(The second [line] consisted of rorarii, men of lower age and strength.)

" tertium accensos, minimae fiduciae manum; eo et in postremam aciem reiciebantur."

(The third [line] of accensi, men of least fighting ability, and these were held back in the last line.)


So - we have five lines of troops, of which the last three are grouped under the standards, and their units are called 'ordines' (with subunits being termed 'vexilla'), and the first two lines are deployed in advance of them, their subunits being called 'manipuli'.  We may note the complete absence of any indication of gaps between the maniples of antepilani or the vexilla of the ordines.  This distinction between 'manipuli' and 'ordines' is important for understanding the next part of Livy's description.


Livy now turns to describing their tactical employment.


"ubi his ordinibus exercitus instructus esset, hastati omnium primi pugnam inibant."

(When the army was drawn up in these formations, of all the troops the hastati would be the ones to begin the battle.)

"si hastati profligare hostem non possent, pede presso eos retro cedentes in intervalla ordinum principes recipiebant."

(If the hastati were unable to overcome the enemy, then under pressure they would retire backwards and the principes would receive them into the intervals of their files.)


Here we have the crux of the matter: the hastati are retiring under pressure; there is no question of a convenient pause in the fighting.  The potentially ambiguous part is 'in intervalla ordinum'.  Livy does not use 'ordo' to mean a formation of principes: he used 'manipulus'.  'In intervalla ordinum' here thus cannot mean 'into the gaps between the formations' - that would be 'in intervalla manipulorum'.  We must look to the other meaning of 'ordo', that of a rank or file.  Hence, Livy is telling us that the hastati withdrew between the files of the principes.

Latin "ordo" does not mean "row". Latin or do can be translated directly into Italian "ordine" which refers to the opposite of chaos or in a figurative way to a group of people with follows an "order". We talk for example of "religious orders" (transliterating from italian) such as the "order" of Francescani, gesuiti, et cetera. There are many other Latin words to refer to the rows of men in a formation. So the first idea which comes to my mind when speaking of an "ordo" in a military context is a ("ordered") group of people, or a unit. And basic unit for Romans was manipulum.
Now, "inter" has different meanings but we should not forget that first meaning is "between" rather than "inside, in the middle". From that (inter, intra) comes the Italian word "tra" which means "between".
"Inter ordines", "tra gli ordini" (literally) makes me think firstly to something happening between groups of people.