Chucking the Pilum 2: The Pilum Returns!

[Erpingham]

Velites wouldn't have a problem. Inserted in the file spaces of the hastati, principes and triarii they had all the depth they needed, even for a short run up.

But weren't there more than one velite per file interval?  That would complicate things, especially with only about 2 ft (0.6m) width to operate in. 

[Justin Swanton]

Velites wouldn't have a problem. Inserted in the file spaces of the hastati, principes and triarii they had all the depth they needed, even for a short run up.

But weren't there more than one velite per file interval?  That would complicate things, especially with only about 2 ft (0.6m) width to operate in. 

2 for the hastati, 2 for the principes and 1 for the triarii. They shouldn't have a problem. And the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.

[Erpingham]

And the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.

That's a new one on me. That would be a 10 foot frontage.  So, this would be a form of extended order?  Is this given in Polybius or Vegetius? 

[Justin Swanton]

And the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.

That's a new one on me. That would be a 10 foot frontage.  So, this would be a form of extended order?  Is this given in Polybius or Vegetius? 

Each file in intermediate order is 3 feet wide (that's Polybius - I can go into it if you like). In open order each file's frontage doubles to 6 feet. A man has a shoulder width of about 16 inches. Make it 2 feet to accommodate the shield he carries at his side. 6 feet - 2 feet = 4 feet.

[Erpingham]

And the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.

That's a new one on me. That would be a 10 foot frontage.  So, this would be a form of extended order?  Is this given in Polybius or Vegetius? 

Each file in intermediate order is 3 feet wide (that's Polybius - I can go into it if you like). In open order each file's frontage doubles to 6 feet. A man has a shoulder width of about 16 inches. Make it 2 feet to accommodate the shield he carries at his side. 6 feet - 2 feet = 4 feet.

Makes sense, thanks.  Getting confused between frontages and intervals there.  So, your model sees the velites operating inside the formation, in the intervals, as opposed to deploying in front and withdrawing into the formation is the lines close?

[Justin Swanton]

And the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.

That's a new one on me. That would be a 10 foot frontage.  So, this would be a form of extended order?  Is this given in Polybius or Vegetius? 

Each file in intermediate order is 3 feet wide (that's Polybius - I can go into it if you like). In open order each file's frontage doubles to 6 feet. A man has a shoulder width of about 16 inches. Make it 2 feet to accommodate the shield he carries at his side. 6 feet - 2 feet = 4 feet.

Makes sense, thanks.  Getting confused between frontages and intervals there.  So, your model sees the velites operating inside the formation, in the intervals, as opposed to deploying in front and withdrawing into the formation is the lines close?

Yes. I doubt they'd have enough time to throw all their javelins before the enemy reaches them if they are throwing just from in front of the formation.

[LawrenceG]

Yes. I doubt they'd have enough time to throw all their javelins before the enemy reaches them if they are throwing just from in front of the formation.

That depends on how far in front of the formation they are and whether the enemy are able/willing to keep chasing them as they fall back.   

[Duncan Head]

Yes. I doubt they'd have enough time to throw all their javelins before the enemy reaches them if they are throwing just from in front of the formation.

That depends on how far in front of the formation they are and whether the enemy are able/willing to keep chasing them as they fall back.   

Also depends who they are fighting. If they're up against hostile skirmishers rather than heavy infantry aiming to close, they could be running back and forth exchanging missiles for a long time.

[Erpingham]

Yes. I doubt they'd have enough time to throw all their javelins before the enemy reaches them if they are throwing just from in front of the formation.

That depends on how far in front of the formation they are and whether the enemy are able/willing to keep chasing them as they fall back.   

Also depends who they are fighting. If they're up against hostile skirmishers rather than heavy infantry aiming to close, they could be running back and forth exchanging missiles for a long time.

It seems to me that Justin is proposing a novel interpretation of the tactics of velites.  Perhaps it needs a topic of its own to more fully explore?

[Justin Swanton]

That depends on how far in front of the formation they are

Also depends who they are fighting.

Both true, but it's interesting that Polybius' and Livy's hastati are armed with missile weapons (hence are capable of their own pre-charge volley) and that the Velites do not form separate units but are split between the hastati, principes and triarii. Livy in Histories 8.8 doesn't describe any separate skirmishing action in front of the line by the leves but starts straight with the hastati fighting and falling back if necessary. It's possible the leves and velites didn't stand in front of the line at all.

[Duncan Head]

It's possible the leves and velites didn't stand in front of the line at all.

The battle was begun by an engagement between the advanced guard of the two armies; and at first the affair between these light-armed troops (euzonoi) was indecisive. ... then the legionaries (ta pezika stratopeda) took the place of the light-armed (euzonous) and closed with the enemy.

This certainly sounds like the velites acting as entirely conventional light-armed skirmishers, deploying in front and opening the fight against the Carthaginian equivalent. I think they are far more versatile than some light infantry and this was by no means all they could do, but I have no doubt that this is how they often operated.

[Ian61]

The question that this all begs is what difference does this make on the table-top battlefield? It is clear from ancient accounts that skirmishers often engaged the enemy in advance of the main battle line. The two main lines of Infantry then come together and this begs the question where do the skirmishers go? One can imagine the Romans and similar being trained to open ranks in some way to let them through as envisioned by some above - but what about less well drilled armies? Again one imagines that Roman units had some gaps between sections that might provide a 'route out' but again less disciplined armies might not. There is no mention that I know of where these lightly armoured chaps become 'squished' between the main infantry lines. Therefore they surely must have been able to move through to avoid this fate. Yet am I wrong in thinking that in most (certainly not all) rule systems you are penalised (or pay points towards the ability to avoid) moving one unit through another?

In a recent clashes between Boudicca and the Romans using HC Rob and I decided that both sides slingers could move back through (or be moved over by)  an identified 'parent unit' without penalty and that seemed to work well. Interestingly for the javelin armed units this is much less useful because their range is too short to be able to make 'closing shots' in HC - perhaps both would benefit from being able to shoot and flee as a charge response. [the Parthians have their Parthian Shot rule as a clear difference to other units]

Livy in Histories 8.8 doesn't describe any separate skirmishing action in front of the line by the leves but starts straight with the hastati fighting and falling back if necessary. It's possible the leves and velites didn't stand in front of the line at all.

The other possibility is even harder to model if we have to think about mixed units with the velites etc. throwing out of the main battle line. How do others deal with this if trying to refight a known battle where light troops are known to have had a role?

[Justin Swanton]

It's possible the leves and velites didn't stand in front of the line at all.

The battle was begun by an engagement between the advanced guard of the two armies; and at first the affair between these light-armed troops (euzonoi) was indecisive. ... then the legionaries (ta pezika stratopeda) took the place of the light-armed (euzonous) and closed with the enemy.

This certainly sounds like the velites acting as entirely conventional light-armed skirmishers, deploying in front and opening the fight against the Carthaginian equivalent. I think they are far more versatile than some light infantry and this was by no means all they could do, but I have no doubt that this is how they often operated.

Could Polybius have taken the trouble to describe this because it was a bit unusual? If it was absolutely standard for velites to deploy and operate in front of the main lines then why describe it? In this case the velites would have been necessary as a screen against the Carthaginian skirmishers, but when dealing with more conventional enemies like Gauls, would they have done this? I'm not in guru mode BTW, just speculating.

[Duncan Head]

I don't see the Gauls as "more conventional", but as the exception; not only Carthaginian but Italian, Hellenistic and Spanish armies would surely have substantial numbers of skirmishers.

It's possible that the skirmish phase at Cannae lasted longer than usual, in that P implies that it went on until the cavalry fight was over (was that Hannibal's intention?), but I doubt that it was in itself unusual.

[Justin Swanton]

The question that this all begs is what difference does this make on the table-top battlefield? It is clear from ancient accounts that skirmishers often engaged the enemy in advance of the main battle line. The two main lines of Infantry then come together and this begs the question where do the skirmishers go? One can imagine the Romans and similar being trained to open ranks in some way to let them through as envisioned by some above - but what about less well drilled armies? Again one imagines that Roman units had some gaps between sections that might provide a 'route out' but again less disciplined armies might not. There is no mention that I know of where these lightly armoured chaps become 'squished' between the main infantry lines. Therefore they surely must have been able to move through to avoid this fate. Yet am I wrong in thinking that in most (certainly not all) rule systems you are penalised (or pay points towards the ability to avoid) moving one unit through another?

Onasander covers this:

There should be intervals [διαστήματα - diastemata, which means 'gaps' in this context] within the ranks [κατὰ τὰς τάξεις - kata tas taxeis; in this context kata means 'throughout'; taxeis in the plural applied to a single phalanx line means 'ranks'], so that, when the lightarmed troops have discharged their weapons while the enemy is still advancing, before the two armies come to close quarters, they may about-face, pass in good order through the centre of the phalanx, and come without confusion to the rear. For it is not safe for them to go around the whole army, encircling the flanks—since the enemy would quickly anticipate them in this manoeuvre, coming to close quarters and intercepting them on the way—nor is it safe for them to force their way through the closed ranks, where they would fall over the weapons and cause confusion in the lines, one man stumbling against another. - Strategikos: 19.1

In wargaming terms, LI that shoot at enemy from within or behind HI should be treated similar to hamappoi and give the HI the same modifier that LI give Cav stands. Simplest solution.