Mail and the Roman ascendency

[Chilliarch]

Excellent long form discussion of mail (whence it came, properties and evidence). He argues that it's mail that makes the difference in the rapidity of the Roman victories of the 2nd Century BC - with the scutum, the legionary in mail was near invulnerable to most weapons of the Hellenistic world other than the sarissa.

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks for the link. Looks interesting so will try it tomorrow

[Denis Grey]

Thanks for the link. ........

[Ian61]

Very interesting. I noted the idea mail doubling over the shoulders of early mail suits. Rob had noticed this as present on some of the armies we are printing for Ilipa and initially thought it wrong and removed them but then replaced them after more research.

[Erpingham]

I noted the idea mail doubling over the shoulders of early mail suits.

The "traditional" explanation being it's due to fighting people armed with cutting swords.  Aiming for the head, blows would glance from helmets onto the shoulders, so these were up-armoured. An expert like Duncan will now appear and tell me that's a myth 

[Ian61]

Interesting video. It sounds like our Armies are far too pat at being mailed one way rather than more mixed, although I have already tried this with my Umbrian legionaries for Ilipa by mixing the various armour options - we had taken the idea that as they were responsible for their own armour there would have a number of cost levels available, the square breast protector being the lowest acceptable. The Campanians are all in the better mail armour as we had the impression that this was a quite wealthy region. (Admittedly this impression comes from later accounts but I am not changing this now as I have another hundred models to paint before March yet.)

[Imperial Dave]

I would expect multiple options present in units due to supply and demand and the value of even old styles of armour

[Nick Harbud]

It's all very well banging on about the virtues of mail armour, but many Roman legionaries were not fortunate or wealthy enough to own such a useful piece of kit.  They had to make do with something that looked remarkably similar to a dustbin lid tied across the front of their chests and hope for the best.

I mean, what proportion of the cohort need to have upgraded their dustbin lids for mithrail before the unit as a whole started slicing through its opponents like a knife through butter?

And once we have answered this question, how long will it take before wargames rules and army lists stop putting the dustbin lids into the same category as the much to be desired mail shirts?

 

[Imperial Dave]

nowt wrong with a dustbin lid

[Denis Grey]

nowt wrong with a dustbin lid

More commonly used as shields, though.  Perhaps a saucepan lid would better represent a pectorale.

[Imperial Dave]

even better 

[Erpingham]

I suppose I should watch the video, but I am interested in the apparent technological determinism of "Have mail, will conquer".  Also, I think I would raise the issue of every one and his dog raising "Imitation legionaries" which did not enable them to conquer the world.  Could they not source the mail?
 

[Ian61]

I suppose I should watch the video, but I am interested in the apparent technological determinism of "Have mail, will conquer".  Also, I think I would raise the issue of every one and his dog raising "Imitation legionaries" which did not enable them to conquer the world.  Could they not source the mail?

The answer is probably clear from the video which emphasises the cost/manpower implications of having mail. The high end luxury afforded only by noble Celts was provided to Romans in greater quantities only because they had money and a lot of manpower (Celtic slaves) to throw at it.

[Erpingham]

I suppose I should watch the video, but I am interested in the apparent technological determinism of "Have mail, will conquer".  Also, I think I would raise the issue of every one and his dog raising "Imitation legionaries" which did not enable them to conquer the world.  Could they not source the mail?

The answer is probably clear from the video which emphasises the cost/manpower implications of having mail. The high end luxury afforded only by noble Celts was provided to Romans in greater quantities only because they had money and a lot of manpower (Celtic slaves) to throw at it.

So really the expansion is down to a superior economic base and the ability to mobilise slave manpower to support the war effort, and not "we have the mail shirt and they do not" (apologies to Hillaire Belloc)?

[Ian61]

Yes.