Too many Triarii?

[Erpingham]

I cannot vouch for Italy, but here Dew is entirely different to rain.

Certainly in the UK but not it seems to Romans or modern Italians. The ros droplet root is probably the key.

If the name is related to Dew, then I would suggest that it happens before everything starts, and might happen  even if there is no battle (rain)

I think the "beginning" element of the figure could be significant.  Dew at daybreak, light rain before the proper storm begins.  Skirmishers begin the battle.
If the rorarii begin by skirmishing, then fall back through the ranks to add support if needed later in the battle, how would that parallel/differ from later velite behaviour (question for the Romanists there)?

[Keraunos]

If the rorarii begin by skirmishing, then fall back through the ranks to add support if needed later in the battle, how would that parallel/differ from later velite behaviour (question for the Romanists there)?

I am not a Romanist, but it seems to me that if the rorarii look like velites, act like velites and curse like velites then one might as well call them velites and be done with it.

[Justin Swanton]

If the rorarii begin by skirmishing, then fall back through the ranks to add support if needed later in the battle, how would that parallel/differ from later velite behaviour (question for the Romanists there)?

I am not a Romanist, but it seems to me that if the rorarii look like velites, act like velites and curse like velites then one might as well call them velites and be done with it.

Velites were by default split between the hastati, principes and triarii according to Polybius, and it seems clear enough from Polybius that they were really split among the heavy infantry and didn't form a separate line in front with some sort of notional administrative link to the other lines:

The principes, hastati, and triarii, each elect ten centurions [ταξίαρχος – taxiarchos] according to merit, and then a second ten each. All these sixty have the title of centurion alike, of whom the first man chosen is a member of the council of war. And they in their turn select a rear-rank officer each who is called optio [οὐραγός – ouragos]. Next, in conjunction with the centurions, they divide the several divisions into ten companies [μέρος – meros] each, and appoint to each company two centurions and two optiones; the velites are divided equally among all the companies - Histories, 6:24

That being the case, if they were ever mentioned as being deployed ahead of the heavy infantry then that was for a special reason, as for example at the Trebia where they supported the Roman cavalry's drive against the Numidian LH.

At Cannae interestingly enough it seems they weren't deployed ahead of the heavies as it was the lightly-armed auxilia and the slingers who were put there. Was 'lightly-armed auxilia' ever used to describe velites? Even granted it was, the light troops were there to screen the legionaries from Hannibal's own slingers and peltasts, i.e. an unusual deployment dictated by circumstances.

With this in mind, it seems the rorarii certainly appear to have behaved as velites. They could initiate combat with missile volley (possibly though not necessarily from in front of the hastati) and supplied overhead missile support after that. Overhead missile support does seem to have been a feature of the legion all the way to the late empire, since all legionaries from Marius were supplied with missile weapons and late-imperial battlelines explicitly had missile troops in the rear ranks.

[Mark G]

Company means a group of H, P and T with V in front of the whole.

Not V in front of H and in front of P and in front of T

[Justin Swanton]

Company means a group of H, P and T with V in front of the whole.

Not V in front of H and in front of P and in front of T

No. We are told that the hastati, principes and triarii each appoint a total of 20 centurions, so 60 centurions altogether (as Polybius states). Each company has two centurions so there are a total of 30 companies, i.e. 10 of hastati, 10 of principes and 10 of triarii. The velites are split among these companies therefore distributed among the hastati, principles and triarii. They don't form a separate line of their own.

[Mark G]

Or not.

[Duncan Head]

At Cannae interestingly enough it seems they [that is, the velites - DJH] weren't deployed ahead of the heavies as it was the lightly-armed auxilia and the slingers who were put there.

Don't forget that this is Livy, who claimed (26.4) that the velites were first made part of the legions only in 211, so you'd hardly expect him to mention them in 216. At least, not if he had any claim to consistency.

[Justin Swanton]

At Cannae interestingly enough it seems they [that is, the velites - DJH] weren't deployed ahead of the heavies as it was the lightly-armed auxilia and the slingers who were put there.

Don't forget that this is Livy, who claimed (26.4) that the velites were first made part of the legions only in 211, so you'd hardly expect him to mention them in 216. At least, not if he had any claim to consistency.

Livy seems to be referring to an adaptation of legion's light troops for cavalry support, since they use the javelins of the 'velitares' but now have shields to boot:

inita tandem ratio est ut quod viribus deerat arte aequaretur. ex omnibus legionibus electi sunt iuvenes maxime vigore ac levitate corporum veloces; eis parmae breviores quam equestres et septena iacula quaternos longa pedes data, praefixa ferro quale hastis velitaribus inest.

"out of all the legions were picked young men who by reason of strength and lightness of build were the swiftest. these were furnished with round shields of smaller size than those used by cavalry, and seven javelins apiece four feet long and having iron heads such as are on the spears of the light-armed troops [velitaribus]."

The same velitares accompanied the Roman cavalry at the cavalry fight at the Ticinus. Here they are called iaculatores - "throwers" - and they don't fight the Carthaginian horse hand-to-hand but retire through their own cavalry.

"Scipio stationed his darters [iaculatores] and Gallic horse in front, holding in reserve the Romans and the best of the allies; Hannibal put the cavalry who rode with bridles in the centre, and made his wings strong with Numidians. Hardly had the battle-cry been raised, when the darters fled through their supports to the second line."

It seems that the strictly skirmishing leves/iaculatores were upgraded to peltasts at Capua, accompanying the cavalry and fighting the enemy cavalry toe-to-toe which implied the ability to engage them in hand-to-hand combat as well as by missile fire.

And yes, the iaculatores were stationed in front at Cannae. The word is translated as "slingers" in the Perseus translation - I keep forgetting not to trust translations:

iaculatores ex ceteris leuium armorum auxiliis prima acies facta.

"The slingers [iaculatores] and other light-armed auxiliaries were formed up in front."

My original point was that if the iaculatores (equivalent to the old leves) were always stationed in front then Livy wouldn't have had to mention it - as he doesn't mention the deployment of the hastati, principes and triarii. Making a point of it implies it was unusual, but made sense as a LI screen for the Roman HI against the Carthaginian LI. Gauls - the habitual enemy of the Romans - didn't use lots of LI so no need for a screen against them.

[Duncan Head]

At Cannae interestingly enough it seems they [that is, the velites - DJH] weren't deployed ahead of the heavies as it was the lightly-armed auxilia and the slingers who were put there.

Don't forget that this is Livy, who claimed (26.4) that the velites were first made part of the legions only in 211, so you'd hardly expect him to mention them in 216. At least, not if he had any claim to consistency.

Livy seems to be referring to an adaptation of legion's light troops for cavalry support, since they use the javelins of the 'velitares' but now have shields to boot:

inita tandem ratio est ut quod viribus deerat arte aequaretur. ex omnibus legionibus electi sunt iuvenes maxime vigore ac levitate corporum veloces; eis parmae breviores quam equestres et septena iacula quaternos longa pedes data, praefixa ferro quale hastis velitaribus inest.

"out of all the legions were picked young men who by reason of strength and lightness of build were the swiftest. these were furnished with round shields of smaller size than those used by cavalry, and seven javelins apiece four feet long and having iron heads such as are on the spears of the light-armed troops [velitaribus]."

"velitaribus" is surely an adjective from veles/velites; not from the non-existent noun velitares. Hasta velitaris, the spear of the light infantry, might simply derive from velox, as does veles itself - in which case, the velites might be named after the spear, not the other way round. This would neatly resolve some of the difficulties of the Capua 211 passage.

(I'm sure I have somewhere seen the theory that hasta velitaris originally denoted the socketed pilum, of which the classic velites' spear is a sort of miniature version.)

It seems that the strictly skirmishing leves/iaculatores were upgraded to peltasts at Capua, accompanying the cavalry and fighting the enemy cavalry toe-to-toe which implied the ability to engage them in hand-to-hand combat as well as by missile fire.

That is more or less my interpretation of the Capua passage, yes, as primarily an equipment change, though others have come up with several different interpretations. Nonetheless, Livy does explicitly say institutum ut velites in legionibus essent (and cf Valerius Maximus 2.3.3) - so he's hardly likely to mention them five years earlier, which was my point.

My original point was that if the iaculatores (equivalent to the old leves) were always stationed in front then Livy wouldn't have had to mention it - as he doesn't mention the deployment of the hastati, principes and triarii. Making a point of it implies it was unusual, but made sense as a LI screen for the Roman HI against the Carthaginian LI. Gauls - the habitual enemy of the Romans - didn't use lots of LI so no need for a screen against them.

Yet Livy also explicitly mentions the Roman cavalry being on the right, the allied cavalry being on the left, and the heavy infantry in the middle - so Livy probably didn't need to mention them, either. Saying that the light infantry were in front doesn't imply that it was unusual any more than saying the the heavies were in the centre.

And if you think there's no need for a LI screen against Gauls, then I suggest you re-read Telamon.

[nikgaukroger]

And if you think there's no need for a LI screen against Gauls, then I suggest you re-read Telamon.

Damn that history stuff 

[Justin Swanton]

"velitaribus" is surely an adjective from veles/velites; not from the non-existent noun velitares. Hasta velitaris, the spear of the light infantry, might simply derive from velox, as does veles itself - in which case, the velites might be named after the spear, not the other way round. This would neatly resolve some of the difficulties of the Capua 211 passage.

(I'm sure I have somewhere seen the theory that hasta velitaris originally denoted the socketed pilum, of which the classic velites' spear is a sort of miniature version.)

Sure. That makes sense.

That is more or less my interpretation of the Capua passage, yes, as primarily an equipment change, though others have come up with several different interpretations. Nonetheless, Livy does explicitly say institutum ut velites in legionibus essent (and cf Valerius Maximus 2.3.3) - so he's hardly likely to mention them five years earlier, which was my point.

Fine. It wasn't velites that fought at Cannae, Trebia or the Ticinus.

Yet Livy also explicitly mentions the Roman cavalry being on the right, the allied cavalry being on the left, and the heavy infantry in the middle - so Livy probably didn't need to mention them, either. Saying that the light infantry were in front doesn't imply that it was unusual any more than saying the the heavies were in the centre.

Livy describes the heavies in the centre as being deployed in an unusual manner. Instead of putting the Roman legions in the middle and the Allied legions on the wings, as was customary, Terentius deployed the Roman legions on the right and the Allied legions on the left. He affirms that the Roman cavalry deployed on the right and the Allied cavalry on the left, but this seems partly to make clear to the reader that the cavalry deployment was normal, and partly to make clear who the Gallic and Spanish horse and the Numidians faced, since the battle was decided by the action on the wings hence the players there were important. Adding that the iaculatores deployed in front along with the Auxilia lights also looks like something exceptional. If it wasn't, why not say that the hastati deployed behind them in the first HI line, the principes in the second and the triarii in the third? Why mention the standard deployment of the skirmisher line and not the others?

And if you think there's no need for a LI screen against Gauls, then I suggest you re-read Telamon.

Polybius mentions an interesting detail from that battle:

"But when the javelineers [ἀκοντιστής] advanced, as is their usage, from out of the Roman legions [ἐκ τῶν Ῥωμαϊκῶν στρατοπέδων κατὰ τὸν ἐθισμὸν] and began to hurl their javelins in well-aimed volleys, the Celts in the rear ranks indeed were well protected by their trousers and cloaks, but it fell out far otherwise than they had expected with the naked men in front, and they found themselves in a very difficult and helpless predicament." - Histories, 2:30.1

ἐκ means "from out of", i.e. that the javelineers were originally within the legions and advanced out of them to engage the Gauls. This ties in neatly with Polybius' affirmation that the velites (or earlier iaculatores) were split among the three lines of a legion, however they could advance ahead of the legion (or join up with the cavalry) as circumstances dictated. But their default deployment was not a separate line ahead of the HI.


Edit: thinking about it, advancing ahead of the HI was a customary thing for the LI. So they start up within the ranks of the HI but move ahead of them once the battle starts as a standard practice. This looks like a classic case of parentaxis - the insertion of LI files between the files of HI:

"Sometimes they [the light infantry and peltasts] are incorporated in the phalanx and stationed one beside each man; and this is called insert-position (parentaxis), because there is an insertion of different branches of the service, e.g., light infantry with hoplites; but the incorporation of like arms, such as hoplites beside hoplites or light infantry beside light infantry — the reason for this will be discussed later — is not called insert-position, but rather interjection (parembole)." - Asklepiodotus, Tactics: 6.1.

"Doubling of men, then, takes place by length when we interject or insert between the original files other files of equal strength, maintaining all the while the length of the phalanx, so that a compact order arises only from the doubling of the men; doubling takes place by depth when we interject between the original ranks others of equal strength, so that a compact order arises only by depth. The difference between insertion and interjection has been explained before." - Ibid. 10.17

The reason for parentaxis is clear: it permits the LI to form up with the HI in such a way that they can advance ahead of the HI and later fall back quickly and with order through the file spaces of the HI behind them, then take up position behind the HI files to supply rear-rank missile support. The manuals in action!

[Erpingham]

But when the javelineers [ἀκοντιστής] advanced, as is their usage, from out of the Roman legions

As a non-Romanist who knows no Greek, the obvious reading of this is that the normal practice of the "javelineers" was to advance out from their deployment among the heavy infantry and form a skirmish line.  This would have been true if they were with the triarii (which the rorarii were said to be) or mustered with their administrative units across the three lines (as the velites were supposed to be).  What am I missing?

[Justin Swanton]

But when the javelineers [ἀκοντιστής] advanced, as is their usage, from out of the Roman legions

As a non-Romanist who knows no Greek, the obvious reading of this is that the normal practice of the "javelineers" was to advance out from their deployment among the heavy infantry and form a skirmish line.  This would have been true if they were with the triarii (which the rorarii were said to be) or mustered with their administrative units across the three lines (as the velites were supposed to be).  What am I missing?

I modified my post. Looks like Polybius is describing parentaxis.

[Justin Swanton]

One interesting detail on the number of velites. Polybius gives 4200 men as the standard size of the legion (6.20) but also implies that 4000 men was the minimal size (6.21). With the latter he affirms there were 1200 hastati, 1200 principes and 600 triarii, which meant that in a budget legion there were 1000 velites. Livy twice mentions legions of 4000 men (History: 21.17 and 28.28) so they were a thing. It's straightforward enough to split 1000 velites between the three lines: 400 (or two ranks) to the hastati, 400 to the principes and 200 (one rank) to the triari.

For legions over 4000 men the number of velites, hastati and principes were to be increased whilst the triarii remained at the same size. This means that the legion of 4200 men didn't necessarily have 1200 hastati, 1200 principes, 600 triarii and 1200 velites.

"They divide them so that the senior men known as triarii number six hundred, the principes twelve hundred, the hastati twelve hundred, the rest, consisting of the youngest, being velites. If the legion consists of more than four thousand men, they divide accordingly, except as regards the triarii, the number of whom is always the same."

The ratios of hastasti to principes hence is always the same but the velites are also increased proportionally for larger legions. What happens for a legion of 4200 men? Do you just add 200 velites? That would be the simplest thing to do as adding, say, 100 men each to the hastati and principes would create files of uneven length as you need 200 men for a complete rank.

Other common sizes for the legion are 5000 (four times in Livy) and 5200 (five times). 5000 would be achieved by adding 400 hastati (2 ranks), 400 principes (2 ranks) and 200 velites (one rank) to a 4000 man legion, so 1600 hastati (8 deep), 1600 principes (8 deep) and 1200 velites (2 deep per line). 5200 would be achieved by adding an extra 200 velites - the additional rank going perhaps to the hastati.