Late Eastern Roman Army

[Salostar]

Hi guys,

I'm looking into starting a Late Roman/Early Byzantium army and I'm looking for resource material. I plan on getting the Osprey books but also looking for prints (artwork, equipment, a couple of painting guides would also be useful).

For models I like the look of Lurkios Early Byzantines and was wondering if they would do to represent a late 4th/5th century Roman army?  I know that there were a high number of "barbarians" recruited by the Western Empire but I'm unsure about the East.

[Patrick Waterson]

(Corrected a typo in the title.)

Hello Jamie,

What would you like to know about this particular army, and between which dates (roughly)?

Patrick

[Salostar]

Huh, weird. I started typing a topic when my computer froze on me earlier. Didn't realise that it posted. Will amend.

[Patrick Waterson]

The joys of technology.

The period is perfect for Notitia Dignitatum shield patterns - and Like Ueda-Sarson's website is excellent for these.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/NotitiaPatterns.html

Regarding the actual look of troop types I am no expert.  This I leave to those more capable in this respect.

Gentlemen, please ...

[Salostar]

Thanks for the link Patrik.

[Patrick Waterson]

As nobody else seem to be coming up with anything, a couple of information links to try:

1) Wikipedia entry on the Late Roman Army (this is quite a detailed one, and even has some pictures):
http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Late_Roman_army

2) Wikipedia entry on the East Roman Army (unfortunately much less informative but a bit more specialised):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Roman_army

And a Chilean collector's figures, which seem quite like the real thing:
http://tinyurl.com/k7dd26j

[stevenneate]

Pictorial information for the military of this period is a bit thin on the ground but from the Slingshot archive check out anything written by Jim Sye.  Jim's knowledge of the period is immense and he has written at length about the late Roman period in Slingshot.  Check out the Slingshot archive.

If you are looking for historical information and possible military units and armies, look for books by authors such as Peter Heather, John Haldon and Stephen Williams & Gerard Friell.  The latter pair's "Theodosius: The Empire at Bay" is a good read.  The bibliographies of these books plus the extensive bibliographies accompanying Jim's articles in Slingshot will give you a pile of potential resources to examine.

It seems quite likely that the "barbarians", mainly Goths, would be serving in Roman regular units.  Their dress and equipment may have been quite individualistic, but with the use of similar shield colours/patterns, mail shirts and helmets it would have lent some visual uniformity to the units.

Have fun - it's a good period to build armies in.

[aligern]

There are two questions about mixing Late Roman and Early Byzantine figures. The Late Romans are from a period of say 300-450 Ad, the Early Byzantines from 450 to 600.
Did the Early Byzantines use the crested Intercisa style helmet? Did the Late Romans wear long "Gothic' tunics and wide bottomed trousers with embroidery bands.   If we take the classic Late Roman loo then its about 360 AD and if we have the classic Early Byz its 530 which is nearly 200 years different.

I suspect that the Early Byz have spangenhelm helmets, but some styles with crests that look very intercisa like will have survived. The wide trousers may well not be universal.
So ideally you would have different sets of figures, but in practice it would be difficult to say that LIR figures would be totally out of place.

Roy

[Salostar]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'll check them out.

From what I've discovered so far (conflicting accounts mostly) until the reorganisation in the 7th century the Early Byzantium army was primarily similar to the Late Roman period but had started to adopt Persian armour & other equipment. This would suggest as you point Aligern that different models would be required but also that LIR equipment (heavy infantry?) was still in use so some models would be similar but others would be different.

At this point I think a mix would be beneficial, LIR models to represent the older style of armour still in use mixed with EB for the newer.

After all this research now I'm tempted to collect a Mid and late Byzantium army...

[valentinianvictor]

I would urge you to have a look at the pen & ink drawings of the Column of Arcadius and the Column of Theodosius. You will see how Late Roman infantry and the Goths were depicted.

The Goth's on the Column of Arcadius were those under the command of Gainas, who was a Roman military commander who made an attempt at taking Constaninople around 400AD. The Goth's are shown wearing long sleeved tunics coming to the knee, and long trousers. They also have that kind of 'Page boy' type hair style that some Late Roman art works show, especially from the 5th Century onwards.

[valentinianvictor]

And are you the same Jamie of Eve Online fame?

[Salostar]

I would urge you to have a look at the pen & ink drawings of the Column of Arcadius and the Column of Theodosius. You will see how Late Roman infantry and the Goths were depicted.

The Goth's on the Column of Arcadius were those under the command of Gainas, who was a Roman military commander who made an attempt at taking Constaninople around 400AD. The Goth's are shown wearing long sleeved tunics coming to the knee, and long trousers. They also have that kind of 'Page boy' type hair style that some Late Roman art works show, especially from the 5th Century onwards.

I'll have a look for them, and yes. Didn't know that I was famous however

[Mark]

Noticed this upcoming book from Ike Syvanne when looking at Amazon today:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Military-History-Late-Rome-284-361/dp/1848848552

[aligern]

The troops on the Column are interesting. Adrian has, in the past, supplied excellent pictures of them and they look like they are wearing classicised helmets and cuirasses. Now one gives one's money and takes ones choice as to whether these are realistic representations or not.  It seems to me likely that the helmets are made to look like Attic Greek helms and the armour is heroicised into a Hellenistic  looking cuirass with pteruges. I would be given immense confidence if such a helmet were to be found, but at the moment it is a fudge to say that they look like Intercisa style helmets but with a frontal peak added... That would fly in the face of all t.
He evidence that shows that Roman sculptors do change armour forms substantially from what is worn at the time. So the Helmets on the Ludovisi sarcophagus are fantasies as are the helmets on Trajan's column or the column of Marcus Aurelius. Similarly with the impossible lyrical on these artworks. Depiction on a Roman relief is just not certain reproduction of a form of armour.
Even something such as the Tropaeum Traiani , a representation made in the field and much nearer what we actually recover from Roman sites changes the representation of armour.
Ro

[Patrick Waterson]

That would fly in the face of all the evidence that shows that Roman sculptors do change armour forms substantially from what is worn at the time.

Would it be possible to summarise this evidence for the benefit of those who know of the sculptures but not why they should be considered inaccurate?